Fordson Hotel (formerly 21c Museum Hotel)

[HOT ROD]

Is there any way to get the police HQ redesigned now that this quality development is on the go? Surely it is clear the city did not consider this area would take off when the police station was planned, but things change and so should the HQ fronting main St.

[Chicken In The Rough]

$50 million for that area of town? This project is baffling to me; perhaps even dubious.

Maybe we'll see some rapid redevelopment nearby that makes this project more logical. I've always thought that the westside has enormous potential.

[sroberts24]

Wow that is great, 50 mil... West Anchor!

[Jim Kyle]

Also, Steve did not break this story. We did, days before his Sunday article.

True, but as the late Chan Guffey (at the time, city editor of the Oklahoman) told me personally in 1958, "It's not news until we print it." That attitude still holds true, I fear, and is one of the reasons for the decline of print journalism...

NOTE: I'm not dissing Steve for this; he has bosses who project company policy. I suspect he'd be more than willing to give credit where it's due, but must continue to project official policy! At least, that was my attitude when I worked at The Great Moral Daily (the in-house name used by the Times staff to refer to the morning paper) and I have a strong belief that he feels the same way but cannot say so in public. And he did "break" the story, if you consider "break" to mean publishing before any other conventional medium. Blogs and on-line forums don't count in that case...

[Steve]

Pete and I have different interpretations of breaking the "story." I saw no "story" here at OKC Talk. That's it. There's a big difference between repeating an unattributed tip and actually reporting, doing interviews and writing a story. I could have done what Pete did a week earlier. I CHOSE to get the FULL STORY, to do the work that's involved with that. I did a story. Pete put out an anonymous tip. Big difference. Now, if Pete were to have interviewed the company's president, gotten details of the deal, gotten local reaction, etc., then yeah, he would have broken the story. Notice I didn't say I broke "the news." Yeah, Pete did that. But he didn't break the story. I realize this response might trigger another feeding frenzy at my expense. I'm getting used to it. I chose not to respond to Pete's earlier comment in this thread. But I'm not going to hide behind the idea that my column somehow conformed to commands from up above. It was my wording. I stand by it. Let the hate begin.

[HangryHippo]

Pete and I have different interpretations of breaking the "story." I saw no "story" here at OKC Talk. That's it. There's a big difference between repeating an unattributed tip and actually reporting, doing interviews and writing a story. I could have done what Pete did a week earlier. I CHOSE to get the FULL STORY, to do the work that's involved with that. I did a story. Pete put out an anonymous tip. Big difference. Now, if Pete were to have interviewed the company's president, gotten details of the deal, gotten local reaction, etc., then yeah, he would have broken the story. Notice I didn't say I broke "the news." Yeah, Pete did that. But he didn't break the story. I realize this response might trigger another feeding frenzy at my expense. I'm getting used to it. I chose not to respond to Pete's earlier comment in this thread. But I'm not going to hide behind the idea that my column somehow conformed to commands from up above. It was my wording. I stand by it. Let the hate begin.

No hate here. I agree with you 100%.

[warreng88]

Pete and I have different interpretations of breaking the "story." I saw no "story" here at OKC Talk. That's it. There's a big difference between repeating an unattributed tip and actually reporting, doing interviews and writing a story. I could have done what Pete did a week earlier. I CHOSE to get the FULL STORY, to do the work that's involved with that. I did a story. Pete put out an anonymous tip. Big difference. Now, if Pete were to have interviewed the company's president, gotten details of the deal, gotten local reaction, etc., then yeah, he would have broken the story. Notice I didn't say I broke "the news." Yeah, Pete did that. But he didn't break the story. I realize this response might trigger another feeding frenzy at my expense. I'm getting used to it. I chose not to respond to Pete's earlier comment in this thread. But I'm not going to hide behind the idea that my column somehow conformed to commands from up above. It was my wording. I stand by it. Let the hate begin.

I don't hate Steve. I think that's a fair and accurate assessment. It is true that there really was no story here at okctalk, just snippets of information about who and where. The full story came from Steve and the Oklahoman. I suspect Steve knew some of the snippets of information but couldn't publicly do a story with details until either the company allowed him that right or deals had publicly gone down. Either way, it is a good job by Pete and Steve giving us the information from a few different angles. Keep doing what you're doing boys.

[Steve]

No hate here. I agree with you 100%.

Forgive me if my comment came off the wrong way. I'm just tired of all these threads turning into debates over my work.

[Bellaboo]

Forgive me if my comment came off the wrong way. I'm just tired of all these threads turning into debates over my work.

Steve,

I think everyone appreciates your contribution to OKC way more than you think......

[soonerguru]

$50 million for that area of town? This project is baffling to me; perhaps even dubious.

Maybe we'll see some rapid redevelopment nearby that makes this project more logical. I've always thought that the westside has enormous potential.

Think big. OKC is the can-do city (despite our numerous foibles). I've quit underestimating OKC. So much has happened that I never thought would, i.e., renovation off Plaza Court, infill in inner-city neighborhoods, complete infill of Deep Deuce, explosion of housing, skyscraper(s), rail-based transit system. This city is on a roll so it's not a wild thought to imagine three city blocks being renovated in the heart of an exploding and rapidly densifying urban core where thousands of new housing units are being built, companies are relocating, and a rail-based transit system is about to be deployed. Even by 2016, when this is expected to be finished, the city will have changed a lot more.

[Pete]

I could have done what Pete did a week earlier. I CHOSE to get the FULL STORY, to do the work that's involved with that

Are you saying you knew about this deal and were working on the 'story' BEFORE this thread broke on Wednesday?

Or are you saying you took the information found here and used that as the genesis for your story?

And also, do you think those people you interviewed would have gone on record if the 'news' wasn't already out?


And BTW, there is lots of work involved in getting the information I provided as well. It's not just an "anonymous tip" any more than what you do is just "talking on the phone".

[dankrutka]

Steve,

I think everyone appreciates your contribution to OKC way more than you think......

This. Don't get riled up by a vocal minority, Steve. A large majority here appreciate your work and understand your role and the role of this board are different and complimentary.

[betts]

Steve,

I think everyone appreciates your contribution to OKC way more than you think......

Agree.

[sroberts24]

I truly think the dynamic we have here is great with Pete and Steve. Honestly, I don't think OKC would be where it is or as supported as it is if it weren't for this site and Steve's great stories.

What is so great and what I live about it is usually we hear whispers and tidbits of info here than the anticipation builds. Then when I see the paper it's like Christmas morning reading the details in Steve's story.

Then back to OKCTALK to debate and see additional info.

[Pete]

This. Don't get riled up by a vocal minority, Steve. A large majority here appreciate your work and understand your role and the role of this board are different and complimentary.

This has been repeated here -- literally -- hundreds of times. By me personally dozens of times.

"Let the hate begin" implies otherwise and that's unfair.

There will always be a few harsh critics when you are in the public eye but that is not even close to characterizing the opinions that are expressed on this site.

[Steve]

Are you saying you knew about this deal and were working on the 'story' BEFORE this thread broke on Wednesday?

Or are you saying you took the information found here and used that as the genesis for your story?

And also, do you think those people you interviewed would have gone on record if the 'news' wasn't already out?


And BTW, there is lots of work involved in getting the information I provided as well. It's not just an "anonymous tip" any more than what you do is just "talking on the phone".

I was working the story before Wednesday. I fully knew about it long before it was first posted here. You broke the "news" Pete. I broke the story. Big difference.

[Rover]

The story is bigger than "who broke what". Today's information river is fed by multiple streams. When the story becomes about the information process and not the information, then everyone suffers.

Many or most of us are avid OKCTalk participants or viewers, and we also subscribe to the Daily OK. Both serve a valuable purpose and shouldn't be forced to compete.

Please, Steve and Pete, don't be drawn into a pi$$ing match that serves no one and only feeds those that would keep instigating it. 98% appreciate both sources and personalities.

[warreng88]

Steve and Pete, can you answer this for me? I would appreciate your insite.

I am curious what the 21c people have been told in terms of future development in that area and what is to come to entice them to pick that location. Are there certain things city officials can share with other potential developers as far as future development of areas? For example, can someone say, "We have a developer looking to build 300+ apartments within two blocks of here with ground floor retail, etc"

[Steve]

The story is bigger than "who broke what". Today's information river is fed by multiple streams. When the story becomes about the information process and not the information, then everyone suffers.

Many or most of us are avid OKCTalk participants or viewers, and we also subscribe to the Daily OK. Both serve a valuable purpose and shouldn't be forced to compete.

Please, Steve and Pete, don't be drawn into a pi$$ing match that serves no one and only feeds those that would keep instigating it. 98% appreciate both sources and personalities.

I agree. That's why I didn't respond to Pete's first comment. But Jim's comments, while historically true and could have provided me "cover" with OKC Talk, simply didn't apply here, and it would have been disingenuous of me to have let that stand.
I've said my bit. Pete has said his. Let's move on.

[Pete]

I was working the story before Wednesday. I fully knew about it long before it was first posted here. You broke the "news" Pete. I broke the story. Big difference.

The only other journalist on this thread failed to see this distinction so this isn't as simple as you making a decree based on semantics and that being the final word.

Also, your comments in this thread and on Twitter immediately after this thread was posted sure sounded like you thought 21c was going into Hotel Black.

[Steve]

Steve and Pete, can you answer this for me? I would appreciate your insite.

Good question. It's tricky, because you often have developers competing for similar projects and opportunities. So a person like Cathy O'Connor are constantly walking tight-rope. They have to keep confidences if developers are going to share their plans. This dialogue, by the way, often helps in the city quietly playing a de facto planning role in terms of timing, public improvements, etc. So to answer your question, there is very little a city official can share with a developer about what other developers are up to if their plans have yet to be made public. A good developer, however, is usually able to do their own intelligence work and figure out what is what. And in this case, it's not difficult to figure out that west downtown is seriously in play.

[Steve]

The only other journalist on this thread failed to see this distinction so this isn't as simple as you making a decree based on semantics and that being the final word.

Also, your comments in this thread and on Twitter immediately after this thread was posted sure sounded like you thought 21c was going into Hotel Black.

Are you calling my honesty into question? I was, and am, tracking something very different with Hotel Black. I was meeting with the president of 21c and an executive with Hall Capital before you even posted your bit. We met Wednesday morning in the bar at the Sheraton Hotel and arranged our meeting on Monday.

[Pete]

This isn't a pissing match, it's a discussion of the roles of the various forms of media that now report news. I have never attacked Steve or treated him with anything other than great respect.

I also feel the need to stick up for this site and the work we do here. Especially on the very website (rather than Twitter or Steve's blog) where I have invested tens of thousands of dollars of my own money and thousands of hours of work.

Steve understands this better than anyone, as evidenced with his frequent posts/tweets/blogs/chat comments about defending what he does for a living and how he does it.

[Steve]

And I'm not taking these discussions any more to my Twitter or blog either. And I've often praised your work with this site. But we disagree greatly as to whether what you've started to do with this site is "breaking news" or "breaking the story." And I doubt that's going to change. So can we go back to talking about 21c?

[tomokc]

It was said recently that when actors publicly disagree the only winner is People Magazine. I don't see a winner in a "Pete v. Steve" thing, but everyone here wins when there is a Pete AND Steve thing.

The rules & roles of journalism & blogging are evolving, so this isn't unusual for two hard-working, competitive guys who love this city. I hope that you guys can take it offline and work things out. Let us know when that happens.