Fordson Hotel (formerly 21c Museum Hotel)

[bchris02]

Remember TIF funds (and no doubt other incentives) are part of this, so the City has been and will be actively involved in this whole deal.

So, why would they steer them here?


And BTW, the Farmer's Market is another half mile away and separated by a blighted area of semi-industrial properties (and old I-40 footprint). If the City is planning to spend a bunch of public funds in this area, I may flip my lid. There are so many needs in the areas where there has been considerable public and private investment, with plenty more to come. It's not like Midtown, Bricktown and Core to Shore are close to done and we need to go running off to throw millions -- and personnel resources -- in an area that is way premature.

How about letting the central city fill in a bit and grow towards these areas, first?

I think whoever is making these decisions needs to take a trip to Louisville, Columbus, or Charlotte to learn how important critical mass is to developing an urban district and why it's best to keep public focus and incentives on Bricktown, the CBD, Midtown/Auto Alley, and Uptown until they are more complete. I understand the city wants to revitalize the west end and the farmers market, but let's make the existing "meh" districts awesome before moving resources to new areas.

[Pete]

So the city should deny TIF funding? Which would effectively kill the project.

I'm not saying that; I'm thrilled for this project.

I'm just saying that it is hard to understand given all the other possibilities and needs in OKC.


I will also say that I have a lot of respect and trust in the Alliance for Economic Development and Cathy O'Connor in particular. I know she has been involved in this, so I'm sure there is plenty of solid thought and planning that is going into this.

[shawnw]

try walking on Dewey, Lee or Shartel north of 5th up towards Midtown. The sidewalks are either completely gone or deplorable.

I live in Midtown, and I've walked from 13th all the way down to the boathouse, with many destinations in between. I very much understand the ridiculousness of those streets.

[shawnw]

I like the idea of the U-Haul building instead (even though I know there won't be a change). What's the square footage? Is it comparable?

[Pete]

^

Shawn, I certainly didn't mean to call you out in any way. You are one of the people that have committed themselves to downtown by living there and being actively involved. I meant to aim my comments at anyone reading the thread.


And besides those streets and sidewalks being ridiculous, they are also down-right embarrassing. Every time I come to town all excited to see all the new happenings, I pass through those areas and shake my head at how bad it still looks.

Bridging the existing districts where there has been a lot of investment and where there is still tons of potential (Midtown, AA, CBD, DD, Bricktown, etc.) should be a priority long before we go off in a bunch of new directions. I still feel this way about Core to Shore, too, but we're already committed on the park, so might as well see it through.

[shawnw]

It's cool. I know, was just saying.

I definitely agree existing districts should come first in terms of general priority. But I wouldn't be hurt with doing main and sheridan as part of an incentive package because they eventually need to be done anyway.

[bchris02]

Pete, do you think there is anything that can be done at this point to change the location of this hotel? If so, what?

[Pete]

Sounds like the deal is done and I doubt anyone wants to consider another location at this point.

However, it will be very interesting to see what is tied into all of this in terms of further incentives, possible other developments, etc.

Also, it will be interesting to find out how this all evolved and how they ended up at this site in the first place.

[OKVision4U]

Remember TIF funds (and no doubt other incentives) are part of this, so the City has been and will be actively involved in this whole deal.

So, why would they steer them here?


And BTW, the Farmer's Market is another half mile away and separated by a blighted area of semi-industrial properties (and old I-40 footprint). If the City is planning to spend a bunch of public funds in this area, I may flip my lid. There are so many needs in the areas where there has been considerable public and private investment, with plenty more to come. It's not like Midtown, Bricktown and Core to Shore are close to done and we need to go running off to throw millions -- and personnel resources -- in an area that is way premature.

How about letting the central city fill in a bit and grow towards these areas, first?

Pete, what would the criteria be for Not qualifying / being denied TIF funding?

[Pete]

It's cool. I know, was just saying.

I definitely agree existing districts should come first in terms of general priority. But I wouldn't be hurt with doing main and sheridan as part of an incentive package because they eventually need to be done anyway.

I never understood why we did so much of Main in the first place at the expense of much more heavily-traveled and developed streets.

Sheridan was a little different because most of that was not part of P180.

[hoya]

What benefits are there to this area? I see several.

First, they have easy interstate access from Western. They also have a lot of parking on Fred Jones family-owned lots nearby. While they won't immediately have great access to downtown amenities, they're only a 4 block walk from the Preftakes block. They aren't that far away.

Second, they will be about a block from the new Boulevard. Like the interstate, they'll have easy car access.

Third, the Fred Jones family owns a lot of land in the area and has the money to develop it. 21c are clearly working very closely with the family, so I would anticipate there is the potential for something else to materialize there.

Fourth, it's two blocks from the Main Street Arcade, which is supposed to be being redeveloped and could turn into something pretty cool. I would expect that if this and the Preftakes block are redeveloped, that could spur a lot of changes down Main St. It's true there's a sea of parking along that street, but it's only one block up from the successful developments on Film Row.

21c and the city are probably counting on this being one of the big steps to rejuvenating Main. Deep Deuce will be completely full by the time this hotel opens. Automobile Alley will be nearly full. Midtown will be in much better shape and will be better connected, and will have a huge number of apartments that will be about to hit the market. It's not unreasonable to think that this will be the next area the city targets.

[warreng88]

I am curious how long it will take for development to just west across Classen. This makes the development of the Sunshine Cleaners building just NW of this that much more interesting. Like someone mentioned on the Sunshine Cleaners thread, it would make for a great beer garden for COOP.

[Pete]

hoya, very well-reasoned.

I suppose another way to look at this (as opposed to a missed opportunity for a more developed area) is that we are darn lucky that an operation like this is willing to make such a massive investment in this building, otherwise it and that area might sit untouched for another couple of decades.


I just get worked up when tax payer dollars and City officials are involved, because I (we) have a fundamental distrust based on how things have been decided in the past. However, as I said, I really do respect Cathy O'Connor and hope there is much more to this than meets the eye.

[bchris02]

What benefits are there to this area? I see several.

First, they have easy interstate access from Western. They also have a lot of parking on Fred Jones family-owned lots nearby. While they won't immediately have great access to downtown amenities, they're only a 4 block walk from the Preftakes block. They aren't that far away.

Second, they will be about a block from the new Boulevard. Like the interstate, they'll have easy car access.

Third, the Fred Jones family owns a lot of land in the area and has the money to develop it. 21c are clearly working very closely with the family, so I would anticipate there is the potential for something else to materialize there.

Fourth, it's two blocks from the Main Street Arcade, which is supposed to be being redeveloped and could turn into something pretty cool. I would expect that if this and the Preftakes block are redeveloped, that could spur a lot of changes down Main St. It's true there's a sea of parking along that street, but it's only one block up from the successful developments on Film Row.

21c and the city are probably counting on this being one of the big steps to rejuvenating Main. Deep Deuce will be completely full by the time this hotel opens. Automobile Alley will be nearly full. Midtown will be in much better shape and will be better connected, and will have a huge number of apartments that will be about to hit the market. It's not unreasonable to think that this will be the next area the city targets.

Good points. I am sure the city is thinking about this from a long-term perspective. Does anybody see the existing districts to be fully gentrified by 2017ish to justify going in a new direction that soon?

[Just the facts]

What do the people who own the FJ Plant also own in the area? Do they own any of the buildings to the south of it? We need to get Chip Fudge to weigh in on all this.

If I understand it they own a lot of the surrounding area (with the City being the other land owner) - AND - these are the same people who own the land where the Convention Center is planned. Land swap? Big cash payment that has to be spent somewhere?

[hoya]

It is definitely a risk for the 21c people. I'm not a risk taker but I appreciate those who are. I would think it will be at least 2020 before this area is a place you really want to walk around.

Now, on a personal note, I'm kinda cheap and I have parked on the street (for free) in this area for the past 5 years. I've walked to work downtown every day and have never had any safety issues at all. Now I'm probably not ordinary in that regard, willing to walk about 8 blocks every morning and evening just to save $30 a month in parking fees. But the area is safe.

If 21c is willing to go through a few tough years in the beginning, they could have an amazing location and a lot of success. I guess it depends on how big a risk you are willing to take.

[Just the facts]

It is definitely a risk for the 21c people. I'm not a risk taker but I appreciate those who are. I would think it will be at least 2020 before this area is a place you really want to walk around.

Now, on a personal note, I'm kinda cheap and I have parked on the street (for free) in this area for the past 5 years. I've walked to work downtown every day and have never had any safety issues at all. Now I'm probably not ordinary in that regard, willing to walk about 8 blocks every morning and evening just to save $30 a month in parking fees. But the area is safe.

If 21c is willing to go through a few tough years in the beginning, they could have an amazing location and a lot of success. I guess it depends on how big a risk you are willing to take.

I used to do that at OU. I put my bike on the back of the car, park several blocks away for free, and ride the last 1/4 mile.

[Pete]

Well, they could have come to OKC without nearly this sort of risk, so I still don't completely get it.

I suspect there are two big incentives for them to take this particular site: 1) The building is amazing -- they probably fell in love with it; and 2) The Jones family may have made them an outstanding deal.

[jbrown84]

Fantastic too see a development of such caliber coming to OKC. Will be very interesting to follow given the pioneering aspect of this location.

[UnFrSaKn]

I thought the historic facade under the Dowell Center was no more after it was "modernized" in the 50s?

[NWOKCGuy]

If I understand it they own a lot of the surrounding area (with the City being the other land owner) - AND - these are the same people who own the land where the Convention Center is planned. Land swap? Big cash payment that has to be spent somewhere?

Wasn't there talk about the family initially wanting to do some kind of mixed use housing on the CC site? Maybe they'll do that on the properties adjacent to the 21c now.

[heyerdahl]

This building is only 2 blocks from the Hart building, 3 blocks from Joey's/Paramout. With the pace of growth on Film Row, I can see many more of the existing storefronts on Sheridan and Main getting filled with new restaurants and offices in the next 3 years. Imagine staying at this hotel during deadcenter Film Festival.

The location is one block from Sheridan streetscape improvements (Main & Shartel) and two blocks from Project 180 (Main & Lee).

I wouldn't want to lose a chance to redevelop a building like this into something amazing over one or two blocks of extra walking distance.

[OKCisOK4me]

I'd really like to see a development (residential) built on the lot across and north of this. Something else to view out the hotel window besides the Oklahoma County Jail--not that any out of towners would know what it is. Will be nice if we hear that the family is actually looking to invest in some of their empty lots.

[bchris02]

I'd really like to see a development (residential) built on the lot across and north of this. Something else to view out the hotel window besides the Oklahoma County Jail--not that any out of towners would know what it is. Will be nice if we hear that the family is actually looking to invest in some of their empty lots.

I know a couple that literally won't go to downtown OKC. Why? Because the jail is there and they are afraid of a prison riot and the prisoners escaping and rioting through Bricktown killing at will. I'm serious.

[betts]

Well, those are probably the kind of people who think too much money from MAPS is going to the downtown. What a shame to miss all the fun though. They don't even go to Thunder games? That usually is the thing that will get anyone downtown.