Streetcar

[shawnw]

A track leading from the streetcar route on W Reno Avenue would run down Hudson before turning into the garage.

Does this extra ~2000 feet (total estimation) of track count against our 4.6 miles?

[Hutch]

Randal O'Toole is a paid anti-transit, anti-rail, anti-urbanism, anti-smart growth, anti-land use planning Libertarian whose sole mission is to try to counter federal, state and municipal efforts regarding those issues through his writings and public presentations. He frequently twists select information from various studies and statistics into misleading misinformation in an effort to sway public sentiment and governmental policy decision-making. He goes so far as to write editorials in local newspapers and travel for local speaking events and talk shows in cities that are in the process of making final decisions on rail transit projects. He is currently on the attack against modern streetcar projects in numerous cities, including most recently in San Antonio and Oklahoma City. Make no mistake, he is a mouthpiece and propagandist on a crusade against what he considers the evils of modern public transportation systems and land use planning efforts.

The Imminent Irrelevance of Randal O?Toole | Streetsblog New York City

More rebuttal to the misinformation being propagated by Randal O'Toole about Modern Streetcars:

Response to Misleading and False Statements by Cato Institute

[Tier2City]

Does this extra ~2000 feet (total estimation) of track count against our 4.6 miles?

No. The preliminary budget for the maintenance facility included 2,000' of non-revenue track to access the facility. The additional 1,500' or so of track that will be needed is expected to be balanced out by lower site acquisition costs compared to the Bricktown parking lot sites. Breaking the parking lot lease with Karchmer would have added futher expense and there would have been the need to comply with Bricktown zoning and design requirements. Overall, this site is a good, cost-effective choice.

[shawnw]

Good to know thanks (haven't been keeping up with this thread).

[Urban Pioneer]

It is a great site and resolves the issue of going directly down to the park and Core to Shore area. It also helps set up future connections to the river and Capitol Hill. I will try to go out and take some pictures and video of the site when I get a chance.

[OKCisOK4me]

"Drawings included the possible addition of a three- or four-story parking structure, and potential for street-level retail development."

When is it thought that these will be released to the public?

[betts]

That piece of land, since it butts up directly to the retaining wall along I-40, would have been less desirable for redevelopment than the others. Now, with an extension of the streetcar line to the barn, it may actually jump-start development of the more northerly parcels. So even the barn can facilitate TOD.

[OKCisOK4me]

That piece of land, since it butts up directly to the retaining wall along I-40, would have been less desirable for redevelopment than the others. Now, with an extension of the streetcar line to the barn, it may actually jump-start development of the more northerly parcels. So even the barn can facilitate TOD.

They should also plan to have track come out west of the facility onto Walker, both south and north (like a wye) for Phase II construction toward Capitol Hill.

[Pete]

Here are some renderings of the streetcar garage from the presentation:

[BoulderSooner]

Is there not enough money for something a tad more attractive?

I doubt it and either way
Where can you even see it from?

[shawnw]

If they put that parking garage in (which I really think they should, it's needed, and will only be more needed down the line), I'm not sure it would matter as it would be completely obstructed. That said, let's start talking about the design of that garage and how it should look from the park perspective...

[shawnw]

Also, it's a shame you won't be able to just hop on a street car from across the street from union station as a car is re-entering service... I mean, if you're already down there enjoying the future amenities of Union Station...

[warreng88]

Would the parking garage be an OCURA project?

[LakeEffect]

Is there not enough money for something a tad more attractive? Something like this would make more sense if it was in an industrial area but this is right next to our prized new park. A metal building, for real?

Other cities seem to be putting in a little more attention to detail.

I don't think anyone has been hired for any actual building design, so I wouldn't pin my hat on anything at this point... This is purely a graphical representation of how it could be sited.

[Pete]

Would the parking garage be an OCURA project?

COTPA.

They are HQ'd in Union Station.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Is there not enough money for something a tad more attractive? Something like this would make more sense if it was in an industrial area but this is right next to our prized new park. A metal building, for real?

Other cities seem to be putting in a little more attention to detail.

Of course not...this is how we do it in the Oh Kay See. Cheap = good.

[Praedura]

The streetcar gliding past Union Station and the park..... Oh my!



I want to buy a ticket! I'm ready -- card is already out of the wallet... Oh wait.. it's not built yet.

Patience.

[catch22]

The article says non-revenue track?

Will the streetcar run on these tracks regularly for service?

[Tier2City]

The article says non-revenue track?

Will the streetcar run on these tracks regularly for service?

Not initially for the Phase 1 Zeta route. This track would be used for access to/from the facility to the main route at the start and end of the day. The situation would be similar to the way such non-revenue track is used to access maintenance facilities in Seattle and Tacoma (amongst other places) where the car barn is not immediately on the streetcar route.

However, it is possible that this stretch of line could be used in a bidirectional mode for special events at the park, especially if a stop is constructed at 7th and Hudson. So you could think of that as a Phase 1.2 as was discussed at the streetcar subcommittee meeting yesterday.

To my mind, one of the most intriguing aspects of this site/routing is that it could promote securing other (TIF?) funds to complete the couplet with Walker to fully serve the SW Park area as it is developed. This could mean that the MAPS streetcar Phase 2 funds could be used to expand the streetcar in another direction such as towards OCU or the Health Sciences Center.

Again, this is a very cost-effective choice while also making a strong statement about future expansion of the streetcar network.

[catch22]

Not initially for the Phase 1 Zeta route. This track would be used for access to/from the facility to the main route at the start and end of the day, similar to the way such non-revenue track is used to access maintenance facilities in Seattle and Tacoma amongst other places.

However, it is possible that this stretch of line could be used for special events at the park, especially if a stop is constructed at 7th and Hudson. So you could think of that as a Phase 1.2 as was discussed at the streetcar subcommittee meeting yesterday.

To my mind, one of the most intriguing aspects of this site/routing is that it could promote securing other (TIF?) funds to complete the couplet with Walker to fully serve the SW Park area as it is developed. This could mean that the MAPS streetcar Phase 2 funds could be used to expand the streetcar in another direction such as towards OCU or the Health Sciences Center.

Again, this is a very cost-effective choice while also making a strong statement about future expansion of the streetcar network.

Cool. Thanks for the explanation. I intended to make the meeting yesterday, but was called in to work.

[Urban Pioneer]

Yeah guys, I wouldn't trip out too much regarding the depiction of the car "barn". The building design hasn't been let and quite frankly I think it is entirely possible for the "barn" should it remain a "barn" to completely disappear within the bowels of the garage should it be constructed.

We are working hand in hand with Cathy O'Connor regarding the redevelopment just to the north. As long as the economy says strong, I think it is entirely possible for this area to be developed fairly quickly. Our committee had an extensive conversation regarding the importance of architecture, urbanity, and street walls. We actually insisted that the garage concept (including ground level retail accommodations) be included in this plan from the very beginning.

Parking could in theory be a revenue generator to help mitigate the Operations and Maintenance costs of the streetcar.

This site is bound by extraordinarily tall retaining walls on two sides, the south and the west. It is a perfect site for something you don't care to see. Now it just needs street wall frontage along 7th and on the corner and hopefully provide a "bookend" to a great development just to the north.

[Urban Pioneer]

Here are some renderings of the streetcar garage from the presentation:

The sidewalk level rendering of this garage needs some visual work to better depict shops or potential retail space, but I think this ultimately what everybody wants. I requested an updated rendering and analysis that extends the frontage all of the way to Walker completely obliterating the surface parking lot.

Also, there are existing mature trees on the site we want to save in the interim. They visually screen the First Phase building site site fairly well from the park as it stands now.

[Urban Pioneer]

There is something else to remember regarding the building and comparing it to other cities; we are planning a building that can house 15 streetcar units. At most other cities, streetcars sit in a completely exposed outdoor environment. We are worried about the extreme weather here. MAPS 3 only calls for an initial 6 streetcars to be purchased. The subcommittee requested a building that can house the maximum amount of vehicles in the interior with the MAPS 3 budget that we have to anticipate future growth and provide indoor protection to these very expensive civic multimillion dollar assets.

That may have in turn caused the consultants to set expectations for the architecture of the building itself in the renderings very, very low without a bigger budget.

Cool things can be done with even utilitarian buildings. I hold out confidence that our architects, Hans Butzer and Anthony McDermid, will pull through if the project work orders are processed under the current team.

[Urban Pioneer]

I like what you are saying.

Even if it is a false wall, would still love to see it pushed up to 7th with no setback.

You and I don't disagree one bit on the importance of improving the pedestrian environment in OKC. I think since this is one of the first structures to be built in C2S, I'd very, very much like for it to start to set the standard, at least in terms of walkability. Start at Walker with a nice streetwall that follows 7th. Any garage to the east can include ground or streetside retail/commercial. It's always hardest to create precedence and we've got some of the best advocates in the city for good walkability and a better pedestrian environment sitting on your committee. It is a golden opportunity to leverage that passion and those $ to help create a pattern that can be sustained.

And from the pictures I've shown already, even calling it a "barn" doesn't mean it can't be nice looking or even follow a pretty cool design/theme.

Totally agree. I think that working with the Park Subcommittee and The Alliance is key to finding the additional funds to achieve all of those objectives. We need their help.

[David]

That looks like a great location. Nice job committee members, you are providing a great service to the city.