Fixing downtown retail

[LandRunOkie]

Does anyone know where to find a sales tax collection map? A ban on sales tax in the CBD would probably not cost very much lost revenue for the city and greatly enhance visitors' image of the city.

Frankly, I think this is a the wrong kind of subsidy. But let's start a thread to discuss how to attract retail downtown so we don't gum up the Underground thread.

OK so why is this the wrong kind? And what would you favor as the right kind?

[zookeeper]

Because we believe in the tax that we approved to better our city, which it has done. It would be wrong to turn around and not collect that tax in the very areas that benefit from the tax. I know there's more to the overall sales tax than that, but it's a good reason by itself to find another way.

[LandRunOkie]

Considering how common the complaint of lack of retail downtown is among potential residents, I would have to think such a sales tax ban would make downtown a better place to live. Having plenty of shops open in the CBD would keep it from being deserted after 5, which would make it more desirable as a shopping destination and as an activity for residents. I believe it was Jeff Speck that said people attract people. Cheaper stuff also attracts people, so a sales tax ban could be a catalyst for not just retail growth but residential too.

[catch22]

It's not about getting the people to come downtown to shop. A lot of people would go downtown to shop if it were available. It's more about convincing retailers about that fact. They have money on the line, and taking a built it and they will come approach is a non-starter for them. They want enough people already there to support the business.

The best way to make that happen? Move downtown. The more people living downtown the better chance of more retail. It's as simple as that.

[catch22]

Let's not put the cart before the horse.

Significant retail will come if we continue to build the downtown population. It will start slow and small, but it will eventually grow. You'll see a Walgreens come online, followed by some smaller named retail. Then once you have a little ball and it starts to roll, you'll see that market grow. Just like we are seeing with housing and hotels, housing was going really slow, but once that ball started rolling it picked up some serious momentum.

[LandRunOkie]

Because we believe in the tax that we approved to better our city, which it has done. It would be wrong to turn around and not collect that tax in the very areas that benefit from the tax. I know there's more to the overall sales tax than that, but it's a good reason by itself to find another way.

I don't see how the CBD benefits from MAPS 3. Project 180 is not a maps project. Are you talking about the library? I believe we all benefit from MAPS to some degree. I don't see how the skyscrapers benefit from it any more than the average person.

The best way to make that happen? Move downtown. The more people living downtown the better chance of more retail. It's as simple as that.

If I craved an urban environment so badly just to be urban and to have retail nearby, there is always the option of other cities. Houston has extremely affordable urban housing. You can buy a liveable house in Detroit for what a year's rent costs here. Having an NBA team doesn't make a place urban. Often times government policies such as tax incentives lead the way for growth. I think it is time to get some projects in the pipeline to enhance the urban living/shopping experience.

[betts]

We have finally gotten to the point that I think lack of retail is the biggest problem with our downtown. However, it is getting better. That is almost assuredly due to people now living in our urban core and surrounds. I would not be at all opposed to incentives for retailers locating in downtown, Midtown or Bricktown, as what we now need is density of retail. You can easily walk from Plenty to Rawhide to 9th St, but it would be nice if there were more stores in between. Bricktown still has the potential to have interesting retail, ala Omaha's Old Market, but since it's not happening on its own, I think the city should look at offering incentives. City leaders want this new convention center, but they're not thinking about what people will do downtown once they fill it. If I lived elsewhere, I still wouldn't come here for a convention, but if we had some interesting retail downtown, I'd be more inclined.

[LandRunOkie]

I know you hate p180, but the fact is that it has significantly improved downtown. We have spent 100 s of millions downtown. These building owners need to step up. We have two way streets, on street parking, better sidewalks, etc, and yet you want the building owners to take a pass. When do you expect the govt to quit being the fall guy? The building owners need to do their part in creating the street level ambiance and services. And a few retailers need to take some risk too if you expect it to happen.

It would be nice if private investors put their money where our mouths are. It rarely happens in practice. It would be cool if the convention center funds were diverted to a massive expansion of project 180. It would also be wildly popular.

[adaniel]

We have finally gotten to the point that I think lack of retail is the biggest problem with our downtown. However, it is getting better. That is almost assuredly due to people now living in our urban core and surrounds. I would not be at all opposed to incentives for retailers locating in downtown, Midtown or Bricktown, as what we now need is density of retail. You can easily walk from Plenty to Rawhide to 9th St, but it would be nice if there were more stores in between. Bricktown still has the potential to have interesting retail, ala Omaha's Old Market, but since it's not happening on its own, I think the city should look at offering incentives. City leaders want this new convention center, but they're not thinking about what people will do downtown once they fill it. If I lived elsewhere, I still wouldn't come here for a convention, but if we had some interesting retail downtown, I'd be more inclined.

Doing retail in downtowns short of a large population of both workers and residents is tough, and its not just an OKC thing. The Houston Pavilions, which was billed as a big infusion of retail space into DT Houston, was built with heavy incentives. It is still half empty and gone into receivership. And this is an area with way more worker traffic and residents that downtown OKC.

If you add all of the census tracts in and around DT (including Heritage Hills and Mesta Park), you'd get a population of about 10K. Most towns with 10K people aren't going to have much in the way of retail.

DT Dallas has very little in the way of shopping, but lots of retail in outlying districts, i.e. Uptown, Oak Lawn, City Place, etc. This is probably the most realistic scenario for OKC in the short term. Improve retail in places like Uptown, Classen Blvd Corridor, or Crown Heights/Western area, so its at least accessible to DT residents but provides enough of a market for these places to survive. Then as the rooftops in DT increase, increase retail space as needed.

In the mean time, you will still see small specialty stores like Rawhide or Lululemon pop in downtown as they draw in mostly suburbanites, but large scale retail is probably a ways off.

[Just the facts]

Downtown and the immediate surrounding areas (Bricktown, Midtown, AA, Deep Deuce) have a pretty significant amount of retail now. The area also has a high number of daytime users and a growing number of evening users - the problem is they are spread across too large an area and time. Essentially there are two solutions, concentrate the retail and human components or wait.

[GQofOklahoma]

We need a grocery store and a national retailer to move into Downtown and not Bricktown for this to happen. Trader Joes and IKEA would be perfect. Maybe on the new boulevard?

In my opinion, small business would follow. Its hard for a significant small business presence to survive in an area lacking existing retail, without national retailers pulling people to that area in the first place.

[progressiveboy]

As a rule, retail follows rooftops! In order for retail to happen in DT OKC then it will require lots of new residents. When this happens, then the retail will take shape based on demand of services. Hopefully, DT can attract some major corporate relocations with high incomes!

[metro]

We need a grocery store and a national retailer to move into Downtown and not Bricktown for this to happen. Trader Joes and IKEA would be perfect. Maybe on the new boulevard?

In my opinion, small business would follow. Its hard for a significant small business presence to survive in an area lacking existing retail, without national retailers pulling people to that area in the first place.

DT does have a grocery store now, Native Roots.

[bchris02]

We need a grocery store and a national retailer to move into Downtown and not Bricktown for this to happen. Trader Joes and IKEA would be perfect. Maybe on the new boulevard?

In my opinion, small business would follow. Its hard for a significant small business presence to survive in an area lacking existing retail, without national retailers pulling people to that area in the first place.

I think we need to be careful in putting retailers that really belong in the suburbs downtown like the mistake the city made with Bass Pro. I would love to see IKEA in OKC, but I think along Memorial Rd or maybe on I-35 in Edmond would be the best place for it. I know everybody here would like to see more retail downtown but I think we are beyond a "take what we can get" phase in downtown development. Trader Joe's would probably be a good fit for Midtown eventually or maybe Uptown 23rd.

[dankrutka]

Retail isn't either suburban or urban really. It just depends on where and how these businesses locate and build. For example, I agree that a suburban Target would be a terrible fit for Midtown, but an urban design would fit nearly anywhere in the core. I think everyone can agree that no businesses should have a footprint and layout like Bass Pro. IKEA probably isn't a good fit in the core because they're not interested in being a part of the urban fabric, but instead trapping customers in their casino-like maze. However, if they're willing to meet urban design standards (not happening) then they'd be a great addition.

[Urbanized]

We need a grocery store and a national retailer to move into Downtown and not Bricktown for this to happen...

Why specifically NOT in Bricktown?

[HOT ROD]

not entertainment related

[Urbanized]

What do you mean "not entertainment related"? Are you suggesting Bricktown should not pursue non-entertainment-oriented development? Or perhaps that non-entertainment development does not belong in Bricktown? And I still would be interested in hearing what the OP (GQofOklahoma) meant.

[HOT ROD]

well, Bricktown is an entertainment district so I'd assume that would exclude a grocery store. There are many better locations for a store in other districts such as Midtown or even DDeuce; IMO, BTown should remain entertainment focused.

[Urbanized]

I disagree with that to some extent. Not necessarily about the grocery; I'm not sure BT provides a good location for that. But I think BT needs to grow into a more well-rounded neighborhood and not relegate itself to entertainment-only. This is possible and desirable mostly due it's size, diversity of land/buildings and proximity to other districts. I think more retail and residential have to be a part of the equation there and that national retail certainly fits there as well as it does anywhere else, in fact perhaps better in many cases.

[Teo9969]

The largest residential development in Bricktown for probably the rest of time is going to be the Steelyard, and with it's proximity to Deep Deuce, there will be no reason for a grocery store (as I hope DD will build a full-service in the next 5 years.)

[BDP]

If we're talking about incentivizing retail, the council has plenty of experience doing this:

Outlet mall to open and generate jobs - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |
Incentives luring Bass Pro to cities | News OK

Now, I don't want to see any of that downtown and I'd rather not incentivize non-local retail anymore. So, imo, if we need to do anything, we should look at designating an area where similar incentives are available for new local retail shops downtown. This doesn't mean national retailers would be excluded from the district, they just wouldn't qualify for the incentives. I think reimbursing for marketing, as we did for the outlet mall, would be a good idea as it would benefit retailers who established their businesses before the incentives were in place. Maybe also look at an initial one year sales tax break for the businesses up to the the cost of renovation and or modifications made to a space to get it started. I think mitigating upstart costs and leveraging marketing across an entire district could help ease the debt load for start up retailers, decreasing their risk, and moving the break even point further up in the operations time line.

[Urbanized]

Geez guys, read the posts please. I am not advocating a grocery in Bricktown. GQofOklahoma suggested he didn't want a national retailer such as IKEA or others to locate in Bricktown, but rather to locate somewhere else. I asked why not Bricktown, and I'm still interested in hearing his thoughts on this. Was the conversation really that difficult to follow? I need to do a better job I guess.

[Shannon]

Everytime I drive by 13th & Bdwy, I imagine and wish for an Uptown Grocery.

[HOT ROD]

Geez guys, read the posts please. I am not advocating a grocery in Bricktown. GQofOklahoma suggested he didn't want a national retailer such as IKEA or others to locate in Bricktown, but rather to locate somewhere else. I asked why not Bricktown, and I'm still interested in hearing his thoughts on this. Was the conversation really that difficult to follow? I need to do a better job I guess.

I apologize for my piece, I was just stating that a supermarket might not fit well in an entertainment district and it would be weird to have a supermarket in brown when there are residential hoods close by who would fit better.

Now as to IKEA, my thought is that they are typically a memorial road or I-240 kind of big box retailer BUT since lower Brockton has a big box, I'd be much more comfortable with IKEA there (if they were interested) instead of what we got there now with Bass Pro (which should be at or near Lake Hefner jmo).