The Underground

[Just the facts]

As it is getting colder, I noticed the underground is way busier (obviously).

Although I am guilty of using the tunnels often in the winter and rain, I still wish they did not exist.


It makes me sad to think of what the visible streets could look like on a weekday around 8am, noon, and 5pm if the underground was non existant.

Like^. It is hard to build a meaningful retail community when your customers bypass every you time it is too hot, or too cold, or too rainy, or too windy, etc..... One think I noticed on our last trip to Philly is that when it started raining - nearly everyone ducked into the nearest store until the rain stopped.

[Of Sound Mind]

Like^. It is hard to build a meaningful retail community when your customers bypass every you time it is too hot, or too cold, or too rainy, or too windy, etc..... One think I noticed on our last trip to Philly is that when it started raining - nearly everyone ducked into the nearest store until the rain stopped.

If it's too cold, too rainy or too windy, I'm going to bypass them whether underground or above ground.

[traxx]

As it is getting colder, I noticed the underground is way busier (obviously).

Although I am guilty of using the tunnels often in the winter and rain, I still wish they did not exist.


It makes me sad to think of what the visible streets could look like on a weekday around 8am, noon, and 5pm if the underground was non existant.

I remember we had a group do study and make proposals on DT maybe 15 years or so ago. This was when MAPS was just beginning to get traction. The group was dumbfounded by how OKC was a ghost town even during work hours. They had no idea about the Conncourse until someone from OKC told them. Their suggestion was to shut down the Conncourse and get as much activity at street level as possible. An empty DT gives visitors the feeling of an unsafe area.

[Of Sound Mind]

I remember we had a group do study and make proposals on DT maybe 15 years or so ago. This was when MAPS was just beginning to get traction. The group was dumbfounded by how OKC was a ghost town even during work hours. They had no idea about the Conncourse until someone from OKC told them. Their suggestion was to shut down the Conncourse and get as much activity at street level as possible. An empty DT gives visitors the feeling of an unsafe area.

As someone who is downtown every workday, I'm dumbfounded that people think that DT is a ghost town during work hours. Where are they looking?

[OKCisOK4me]

As someone who is downtown every workday, I'm dumbfounded that people think that DT is a ghost town during work hours. Where are they looking?

Not where...when...fifteen years ago.

[shawnw]

I spent my day off downtown yesterday and I thought the street life was great. Granted, the weather was beautifully spring-like.

That said, I also spent some time exploring the Underground, because I'm not usually around while it's open.

[traxx]

Not where...when...fifteen years ago.

Agreed. Through most of the 90s there just wasn't a whole lot going on DT.

[Rover]

Not where...when...fifteen years ago.

Downtown WAS a ghost town 15 years ago. I hope people realize how much better it is now....tunnel or no tunnel.

I believe in the positive more than the negative. Make things on the street better and people won't WANT to go to the tunnel. If you force them to the street and there is nothing there for them, what good is that? Some people believe you MAKE people do what you want, and some think you can make it better so people WANT what you offer.

[Mr. Cotter]

Downtown is much busier now than it was when I moved here in 2011. While I appreciate the theory behind getting everyone on a single level (sidewalks), I like the Underground on days when the weather is bad. If anything, it allows me to spend my money easier downtown on those days.

[OKCisOK4me]

Downtown WAS a ghost town 15 years ago.

That's what I said lol.

[Plutonic Panda]

I love the underground! Is really nice and convenient for most people. I find it funny how some people want it removed as they want to force people to live and work how "they" want them to.

[Plutonic Panda]

That's not what it is about.

Well, it sure seems like it. Forcing people to use the streets because "they" want to see more people on the street. The forcing part comes from removing the option for people to use the underground which is obviously their preferred choice at certain times when inclement weather is occurring.

[traxx]

Well, it sure seems like it. Forcing people to use the streets because "they" want to see more people on the street. The forcing part comes from removing the option for people to use the underground which is obviously their preferred choice at certain times when inclement weather is occurring.

It was just a suggestion by that independant group hired by OKC. You gotta remember that back around the mid 90s, OKC was pretty desperate to make things happen. The Murrah bombing was still fresh in everyone's min. We weren't sure if we were ever gonna get to see the fruits of MAPS becaues as Oklahomans we had learned to temper our expectations because grandiose things had been promised before but never came to fuition. And nothing was drawing people to downtown. A whole lot different than things are now.

[Just the facts]

As someone who is downtown every workday, I'm dumbfounded that people think that DT is a ghost town during work hours. Where are they looking?

Answer, on the sidewalk. On my last trip to downtown OKC the streets were dead, but the concourse inside the FNC building was packed. The problem is that those stores inside close when the office workers go home because most of them don't have any visibility from the street. It is really this simple - if we want a downtown that closes as at 5PM then keep doing what we are doing. If we want it to stay open past 5PM move the activity to the sidewalk. It's no harder than that. Just look how fast street-level retail is filling up in the downtown-adjacent areas that don't have the Underground nor direct access to 10's of thousands of workers.

[ljbab728]

Kerry, that is indeed happening but I seriously doubt the Underground has anything at all to do with that.

[Just the facts]

Kerry, that is indeed happening but I seriously doubt the Underground has anything at all to do with that.

You don't think what is happening? In buildings that are connected to the underground what percentage of their retail space opens to the concourse/an interior corridor vs. the sidewalk.

[Snowman]

I think there is some oversimplification of the effects the underground had. The entire streetscape was anti-retail, much of which is just now being addressed: the sidewalks were undersized/missing/overdivided, we had almost every lane dedicated to moving cars in one direction instead of allowing for more on street parking and easier navigation around the city if they went both ways, much of the buildings that had better designed frontage were either demolished or remodeled the frontage out and most post 40's buildings generally had poorly designed frontage to the street. Plus starting retail in older areas is a lot harder than maintaining it, the combination of low population and the renewal plans actively moving what businesses where there meant there was quite a hole we had to dig ourselves out of. Even at this point we still have barely enough people living in the business district to support what was considered enough for the classic main street shops for small towns, in this case they are both helped and hurt by the fact that there is a day population boom, which comes along with that day only store competition for any trying to have more normal hours.

[ljbab728]

You don't think what is happening? In buildings that are connected to the underground what percentage of their retail space opens to the concourse/an interior corridor vs. the sidewalk.

Kerry, go back and read what I said. I didn't say what you thought I did.

[Just the facts]

Kerry, go back and read what I said. I didn't say what you thought I did.

Are you saying downtown retail is moving to the sidewalk?

[lasomeday]

I think both the sidewalk and the underground are assets, we just need more people to fill them. If First National was full with residential/hotel/or offices as well as Dowell's building, we would have more people to fill both. Not to mention Century Center having people.

There are some great locations in the underground that could make cool unusual locations for bars and retail. They just need to think more outside their tiny box. Having just cafes down there isn't enough. They need more of a mix. The biggest part of the equation for the undergroud is First National's above ground space. It is crucial to being full, because it is the doorway to the underground for most people.

WE JUST NEED MORE PEOPLE!

[Of Sound Mind]

Are you saying downtown retail is moving to the sidewalk?

Right now, there is definitely more downtown retail above ground than in the Underground.

[ljbab728]

Are you saying downtown retail is moving to the sidewalk?

I said this.

Kerry, that is indeed happening but I seriously doubt the Underground has anything at all to do with that.

in response to this comment by you.

Just look how fast street-level retail is filling up in the downtown-adjacent areas that don't have the Underground nor direct access to 10's of thousands of workers.

[Plutonic Panda]

Cool video of the underground

https://www.facebook.com/EdmondActiv...53989662278489

If you look closely, you'll see all of the restaurants, shops, and other stores throughout the underground that otherwise would be on the street.

[shawnw]

I used the underground last night for expediency, took it from 4th/Harvey to Reno/Cox. I passed 2 restaurants. I know there are others, but it's not a ton. And some of the places considered part of the underground are in basements of buildings and likely wouldn't go away if the Underground were closed tomorrow.

[jerrywall]

It's been a bit, but I can think of 2 restaurants... the Shartel Cafe, and the asian food place. Are there more?