Gratuity

[BBatesokc]

Sid is right on. People go to Irna's for the food not the service. Might get it if we were talking Red Prime but...

Which is probably exactly why they instituted the forced tip policy. Obviously patrons didn't feel the need to tip enough to keep the wait staff happy. So, in a totally illogical reaction, the management decided to force the tip.

Red Prime is a good example of where I go for the whole experience of great atmosphere, great service and great food. In return I tip accordingly. I personally don't feel much of a need to tip at a burger joint unless the service is exception - which does happen.

[BBatesokc]

Its no just for Sunday its everyday of the week lunch and dinner.Lady named Linda from Irma's called me this afternoon asking if i wanted a refund and I declined the offer she asked if i would remove the negative posts I left on urban spoon about the incident, I told her that i think the policies are not suitable for this type of restaurant.

Awesome. Glad you didn't cave in. Social media is an excellent motivator and change agent.

[Pete]

Garin, how did they get your contact information?


I've never heard of a restaurant enforcing this policy for five or more; very strange they would draw the line at such a low number.

[Jeepnokc]

Garin, how did they get your contact information?


I've never heard of a restaurant enforcing this policy for five or more; very strange they would draw the line at such a low number.

I have run into it a few times. The one who must be obeyed and I have three kids so we note it when we see it. Usually the number is 6 or 8.

[mkjeeves]

Personally, I think the restaurant thinks its looking out for its employees but this reeks of 'small minded, over management.'

They could raise their prices by say 10% and give that (plus any tips) to the wait staff and most customers wouldn't notice and probably wouldn't feel as offended.

Terrible marketing/customer service move IMO.

Whoever posted on urban spoon recently about this issue (Garin?) already thinks Irma's burgers are "overpriced".

Even though the standard is to base the tip on a percent of the check tempered by the service rendered, I wonder how many people cut the tip when they perceive the food is overpriced?

[Plutonic Panda]

Tips should not be forced on people, isn't that why it is called a tip? You tip some, upon your own will and experience you had with them.

[Plutonic Panda]

Exactly. Which is why it should be called a wage. You should always pay someone wages owed, then if you want to give them a gift as a way of saying thank you, that option is always available.

I would still tip even if they increased their wages. I don't have much understanding about this issue and maybe I will as I consider a new job where I would serve tables, but forcing a tip on people just seems messed up. Anyways, I will soon find out I suppose.

[Garin]

Garin, how did they get your contact information?


I've never heard of a restaurant enforcing this policy for five or more; very strange they would draw the line at such a low number.

I sent them an email Sunday about my displeasure and she responded to it this morning and asked if she could call me so I gave her the number and she called.

[Anonymous.]

I have noticed that places are really taking notice to social media/review sites.

I somewhat recently left a comment on a business's google page and had no identifying information other than my story. The owner called me the following morning asking if I was the one who wrote the review.


It was bizarre.

[boscorama]

I had lunch at Irma's recently. Good burger and rings. Iced tea. Perfectly reasonable service. Price was comparable with Teds for lunch. The server received from us the same tip amount as the crew at Teds. I would be happy with just water but usually order tea to spare any anxiety about the amount any drink adds to the bill and, hence, the tip. My servers would never lose tip money over the absence a $2-3 drink. Now, if I'd had just water at Irma's, my tip would have been less. Not so with Teds, as their service is, well, you know .. Teds. Maybe we should tip 30 percent at Teds?

But I don't go for this automatic gratuity carp.

[RadicalModerate]

The "Automatic Gratuity" removes that pleasurable part of the dining experience that allows the diner to say Thank You, personally, to the people who brought the food to your table and made the entire visit more pleasurable.

(this is why I sometimes wonder about the habit/personal practice of just adding the tip to the CC receipt , , , and the related question regarding whether is it a gaffe or a faux pas to slip the waiter or waitress a five after adding the tip to the slip of paper and saying, "this is for you"? probably it's both of them. As if I care about propriety . . . geez.)

btw: I think the term "Server" is demeaning. Hospitality Coordinator sounds a lot better.
as long as they don't give me any of that automatic gratuity carp. I prefer Orange Roughy.

[bradh]

I sent them an email Sunday about my displeasure and she responded to it this morning and asked if she could call me so I gave her the number and she called.

She also responded to me via Twitter when I posted a pic of a very undercooked burger that I picked up on a to go order a month or so ago. I will give them props for that.

I usually overtip, so if I go somewhere and they automatically just add 16%, it's probably saving me money.

[boscorama]

Agree about "server" but your alternative doesn't make it, either.

QUOTE=RadicalModerate;705800]The "Automatic Gratuity" removes that pleasurable part of the dining experience that allows the diner to say Thank You, personally, to the people who brought the food to your table and made the entire visit more pleasurable.

(this is why I sometimes wonder about the habit/personal practice of just adding the tip to the CC receipt , , , and the related question regarding whether is it a gaffe or a faux pas to slip the waiter or waitress a five after adding the tip to the slip of paper and saying, "this is for you"? probably it's both of them. As if I care about propriety . . . geez.)

btw: I think the term "Server" is demeaning. Hospitality Coordinator sounds a lot better.
as long as they don't give me any of that automatic gratuity carp. I prefer Orange Roughy.[/QUOTE]

[blangtang]

Lady named Linda from Irma's called me this afternoon asking if i wanted a refund and I declined the offer she asked if i would remove the negative posts I left on urban spoon about the incident, I told her that i think the policies are not suitable for this type of restaurant.


(Sorry Garin -- I accidentally removed part of your post while attempting to respond. ~ Pete)

I find it interesting that removing a negative post on urbanspoon is worth about $60.

oh and why don't people use yelp in OKC ?

urbanspoon seems to have caught on in the food cirlces here...

[Teo9969]

You've got a lot of proving to do.

As do you, if you plan on trying to hold me to more than anecdotal evidence.

As I mentioned already, low wages for wait staff isn't everywhere in the US.

I'm well aware. There are 7 or 9 states that do not allow restaurants to take the tip-credit.

In fact, many states require employers to pay at least minimum wages if they didn't receive enough in tips.

All States.

Please, stop stating that if servers were paid normal wages that somehow the world would end.

I didn't even come close to saying the world would end. I said things would change. The business model is incredibly different in the two systems.

Washington figured out it works better for everyone and I'm glad they did. I don't feel like I have to tip in order for my server to be able to afford a meal but I can leave a tip as a way of saying thank you.

I have a dream that in the future my CC company allows me to set an automatic gratuity for any purchase done at a restaurant and that POSs can automatically take care of that.

Irma's, I'm a fan. Now if we can just get Oklahoma to see the silliness of $2.15/hr wages.

I'm going to say this again, because I think it's the most important aspect of this argument that nobody is acknowledging:

If a restaurant includes a service charge with the ticket, then the server has no legal right to that money. None whatsoever. Irma's can legally keep every dime that is made off of the service charge, as long as the server's average wage over a pay period is at least $7.25/hour.

------

As for the postulation, I'm just telling you, if you remove the tip system, the odds that serving remains a lucrative option decrease dramatically…and if it's not a lucrative option, you decrease the pool of people willing to stay in the industry. There are servers in this city who make $70k/year…and they do it working about 36 hours/week. Do you really think restaurants are going to be willing pay servers $15 to $25/hour let alone the near $40/hour these top of the line people are making?

And what is the average US consumer going to do when prices raise a substantial amount? Right now, you can run a 20 person FOH staff @ an average of 8 hours per person for $341. When that number climbs to $1600, how much do you have to raise your prices? At least a 300% (closer to 400%) increase in FOH labor costs…if the restaurant averages $12k a night in sales, they've taken a 10.5% hit to their operating margin. So they have to raise their prices at least 10% and that's without a service charge factored in.

I'm also skeptical of any examples of how wage-based restaurants are working in the US, because people, I would be willing to bet, are still by and large leaving 20% tips even on top of higher wages (and prices).

You know what the average tip in Europe is? Round-it up...

[Teo9969]

I find it interesting that removing a negative post on urbanspoon is worth about $60.

oh and why don't people use yelp in OKC ?

urbanspoon seems to have caught on in the food cirlces here...

It's not just $60…it was the assumption that the gesture would make Garin feel valued and bring him back in (ostensibly to spend another $60)…it's an assumption that works more often than you would think. And yeah…how many people does it take reading that negative comment to translate into $60 of lost revenue from people who would have otherwise come in?

[BBatesokc]

It's not just $60…it was the assumption that the gesture would make Garin feel valued and bring him back in (ostensibly to spend another $60)…it's an assumption that works more often than you would think. And yeah…how many people does it take reading that negative comment to translate into $60 of lost revenue from people who would have otherwise come in?

Agreed. And to many, social media greatly influences how they spend their money and their time.

A few times a week a group of 4-8 of us patronize different lunch spots around downtown OKC. We've eaten at Irma's numerous times. If this policy stays in effect, we won't dine there as a group again.

[RadicalModerate]

Agree about "server" but your alternative doesn't make it, either.

=RadicalModerate;705800]btw: I think the term "Server" is demeaning. Hospitality Coordinator sounds a lot better.
as long as they don't give me any of that automatic gratuity carp. I prefer Orange Roughy.

I was kidding. About the alternative label. (It should have read Hospitality Coordination Specialist.) j/k

[BDK]

You guys are going to let this go three pages without posting this?



(NSFW, obviously)

[Martin]

Jay Porter | Observations From A Tipless Restaurant, Part 1: Overview

-M

[traxx]

1. I hate when waiters or former watiers get mad at people for not tipping enough. How much you're paid is between you and your employer. Gratuity is just that; gratuitous. It's something extra and it's not a right.

2. If your wait staff is being chronically stiffed on tips to the point that you have to add gratuity to the check automatically, then perhaps the problem is that your wait staff sucks and that's why they're not getting tips.

3. I'm with Pete on tip creep. A percentage tip takes care of inflation. If a burger cost more today than it did in 2000, then 15% of a more costly burger is going to be more.

4. Also, I'm tired of EVERYONE wanting a tip. You see tip jars on counters in so many establishments these days. At the cleaners, coffee place, sandwich place etc. These places get paid a wage. That's your job. Don't expect a tip for doing what you were hired to do.

5. I've read a few articles about restaurants that have decided to pay their wait staff a normal wage and do away with tips. It's not a gratuity added on or a percentage added to the ticket; it's a wage. And the result has been better service because the wait staff isn't worried about getting paid or getting stiffed and it takes the odd and sometimes uncomfortable dynamic out of the customer/waiter relationship. That puts the onus on the employer. Hence if a waiter sucks, they get fired, not a 3 cent tip. If you're afraid that it will raise the cost of the food too much, then there's still Taco Bell et. al. That sounds like the way to go to me.

[Teo9969]

Jay Porter | Observations From A Tipless Restaurant, Part 1: Overview

-M

I read through all 6 part of this.

Let me preface this by saying that I think there is so much good information in this series and a lot of great insight into the restaurant industry for people who have never been in it. I am in agreement with almost all of his individual claims.

Where I differ from Mr. Porter is the overall picture of how things will change in the industry going forward. Dining will be more expensive and will take longer. Lucrative waiting positions will grow sparse to non-existent and so the industry will lose veteran servers, and will fail to have the room for growth for less-experienced servers to see it as a worthwhile use of their time. Individual restaurants, especially on the more casual end, will actually probably stabilize some, but the industry as a whole will be met with less longevity.

It will also be more difficult to start a restaurant. Margins will be even tighter, prices will be higher and patrons will be forced to either expand their restaurant budget or find other dining options. More places like Chipotle and Smashburger will increase in the market, eliminating full-service in favor of some aspect of self-service. And considering the average employee that you have at a restaurant, abuse of the system will grow. That may be easy to weed out if you're one of a handful of restaurants in town working this system. But when you have the entire industry adopt this system, all of the sudden your pool of candidates becomes a lot more taxing to wade through, and your competition to land them is a lot higher. Abuse of the system looks like servers who pass on going the extra step in hospitality because it brings with it no reward, servers who milk the clock because it's now actually lucrative to do so, servers who don't worry about up-selling items because it doesn't impact the pay, servers who let "attention to detail" slide, like filling up water or replacing used silverware, servers passing on dialoguing with guests about the menu opting to instead just be an order-taker.

The abuse of any system is always going to happen. And I'm not going to say that this new system wouldn't work…clearly it would. It's just that wide-spread implementation of this system would establish a different dining experience than Americans are used to.

Sid called this a success story…well the restaurant is now closed (to be sure, not necessarily due to operating reasons) and was a 3*/5* restaurant on Yelp and a 72% restaurant on Urbanspoon. The comments read like any other restaurant's, so it sounds like The Linkery was not bad, but just average…sounds more like a meh story than a success story.

[Garin]

Part of my job description is to wine and dine clients for breakfast, lunch, and sometimes dinner. Mostly breakfast and lunch their can be at any given time 2-4 guests plus myself for each meeting. Irma's has been on this rotation for several years both locations to be exact, I've never been subjected to the automatic gratuity from any restaurant for the last 17 years in business with exception of a few times with a larger group of clients. Regardless if I have fewer than 5 in my party I will never step foot back into Irma's again. Kaiser's is just as close and makes a good shake to boot.

[soonerguru]

Part of my job description is to wine and dine clients for breakfast, lunch, and sometimes dinner. Mostly breakfast and lunch their can be at any given time 2-4 guests plus myself for each meeting. Irma's has been on this rotation for several years both locations to be exact, I've never been subjected to the automatic gratuity from any restaurant for the last 17 years in business with exception of a few times with a larger group of clients. Regardless if I have fewer than 5 in my party I will never step foot back into Irma's again. Kaiser's is just as close and makes a good shake to boot.

I was a waiter. Rule of thumb for us was 6 guests -- and there was a good reason for it. The larger the party, the crappier the tip. It's fairly standard practice. Haven't heard of doing that for five guests, though. Sorry you had a bad experience. Still, somehow I doubt your absence will have much of an impact on Irma's bottom line going forward.

[Pete]

A few people on Twitter picked up this thread and tweeted it, so word has definitely started to get around.


And do most "6 or more" automatic gratuity policies include children?