Lifechurch.tv building a New Location in North OKC

[bombermwc]

Seems to me you have a cult of personality. If LC wouldn't be LC without Mr. Groeschel, is LC more about their leader or more about their message? Messages don't depend on the deliveryman to ring true or not.

I think you're stretching my statement too far here. The Methodist church would agree with you, that the pastor should only be a messenger and your faith should not rely on that person. HOWEVER, for me, the pastor is as much about the church as the congregation. The pastor decides what director the sermons (and the church) take. The pastor is the flock leader. They are human and make bad choices as well, so no i'm not going to follow a pastor blindly over a cliff. One of the main points my pastor (and is true to the nature of Disciples of Christ) is to question and educate yourself. That being said, if the pastor comes into a church and that pastor sucks...that chuch is either going to fall or fire the pastor. So yes, i do feel like the pastor is linked to the success of the church.

If you knew me at all, calling me "a cult personality" would be laughable. I'm a moderate in basically all aspects of my life, but following blindly has never been something that's part of me....lol.

The same is true of any movement you know. How the message is presented is as important as what the message is. Politics is a good example. Those with the good ideas are often behind the scenes while the more (at least theoretically) eloquent folks present it. We all experience this. If you see two people standing on the side of the road holding a "hungry" sign, one dressed in a suit and the other dressed in rags, which are you more likely to believe honestly needs the help? 5 minutes earlier, someone might have given the one man a suit while the other might be ripping people off as he climbs into his BMW.

[OKC4me]

What makes you think that just because they are a large church, that they have to be doing something shady? I've seen churches in the most afluent parts of town almost go bankrupt because the wealthy members dont want to contribute to a united image, rather only to what projects they want done. At the same time, churches in economically depressed areas are strong and stable.

Pastors also have a salary approved by the board of that church. Just like anyone else, they also have bills. If their income surpasses their bills, then they are able to do things. Hopefully they spend the lionshare on that on programs to help people in/out of the church, and not just to put in more fancy lighting and crap.

LifeChurch isn't any different in this respect. I dont care for them, but it bugs me when people single them out as if their some "demon church". Hello....Tammy Faye Baker! When's the last time you saw someone on TBN that was an honest pastor...HA! If churches like these weren't speaking to people on some level, then they wouldn't have the congregations they do. Again, i dont attend there, but the new MWC campus has something like 6 or 7 services on Sunday now spread throughout the day. The parking lot in front of the place is absolutely full every single time. You'll see a couple thousand people flow through that place on a Sunday. You think they're all getting brainwashed or something? All the while, the church continues to grow all over the city. It's not my kind of church, but i seriously doubt that the place is doing shady stuff with their money if that many people are still being attracted to it every week. Now, i do not agree with how the amount of money a person gives there, changes how they view a person. I've seen that first hand with my sister's family so you can't tell me that doesn't happen. However, that's not really any different than it would be in other churches.

Life Church's parent, Metro Church, was notorious for the pastor saying "we need $150,000 more in today's offering. Bow your heads and let me see 10 people raise their hands to give 15K today". I'm not making that up.

I went to MetroChurch my whole life, and I never heard Pastor Hogue ever say that..........

[OKC4me]

If cost is a concern, then why spread themselves out so thin? Sure I've seen Catholic parishes close and consolidate due to costs, but they also don't have the high expenses that these big box "churches" willingly take on. If cost was an issue, maybe there should be more prudent purchasing. Does a church really need this?

How dare Life Church have a couple big screen TV's! Wow. Its wonderful for the local sports bar to have 30 TV's, but how dare a church have a couple TV's! I think I see some coffee out there too. Do they really need that?

[RadicalModerate]

How dare Life Church have a couple big screen TV's! Wow. Its wonderful for the local sports bar to have 30 TV's, but how dare a church have a couple TV's! I think I see some coffee out there too. Do they really need that?

That is a difficult question to answer.
There is 'hell' . . . There are 'handbaskets' . . .
And then there are 'big screen tvs' . . .

I'm not sure where 'need' fits here . . .
other than the 'need' to complain.
about something.
much like
an infant. =)

no offense.

and who
is
they?

[OKC4me]

That is a difficult question to answer.
There is 'hell' . . . There are 'handbaskets' . . .
And then there are 'big screen tvs' . . .

I'm not sure where 'need' fits here . . .
other than the 'need' to complain.
about something.
much like
an infant. =)

no offense.

and who
is
they?

I'm not even sure what your comment means?

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm not even sure what your comment means?

It means you are unaware of what it means.

[ljbab728]

It means you are unaware of what it means.

What does that mean?

[Plutonic Panda]

What does that mean?

What does anything really "mean" anymore? lol

[bombermwc]

I went to MetroChurch my whole life, and I never heard Pastor Hogue ever say that..........

Well it came out of a former member of that congregation and said they heard it more than once. Not sure what to tell you there.

[ThomPaine]

What does anything really "mean" anymore? lol

Well, if you're seeking answers, I know of this really cool church...

[zookeeper]

LifeChurch is just a big business busy opening branches all over the country. The CEO...I mean pastor...even has a Marketing degree from OCU. Whatever floats your boat.

[bradh]

LifeChurch is just a big business busy opening branches all over the country. The CEO...I mean pastor...even has a Marketing degree from OCU.

My pastor growing up had an engineering degree, so?

[bombermwc]

Yeah i dont think the degree has anything to do with it.

And hey all you critics of LF (since apparently it's "cool" to hate them here), have you ever been to a service there? Before you tear the place down, perhaps you should at least attend there once to see what it's like. I may not agree with them, but at least i can say i've been there before. I think you'll find yourself viewing the place very differently after you attend a service there.

It's interesting that peple single LF out too. Ever hear of Crossing Community Church? Check out the degrees the pastors there have....they aren't all theology degrees, but we don't tear them down. It's a mega church, but we don't criticize every aspect of their world. They're a single example among many, but the point still stands. Just because people flock to a particular church, doesn't make it the devil or some mega money empire. If you put the same effort into encouraging the business world to act responsibly, maybe we'd have a better world.

[Midtowner]

I think you're stretching my statement too far here. The Methodist church would agree with you, that the pastor should only be a messenger and your faith should not rely on that person. HOWEVER, for me, the pastor is as much about the church as the congregation. The pastor decides what director the sermons (and the church) take. The pastor is the flock leader. They are human and make bad choices as well, so no i'm not going to follow a pastor blindly over a cliff. One of the main points my pastor (and is true to the nature of Disciples of Christ) is to question and educate yourself. That being said, if the pastor comes into a church and that pastor sucks...that chuch is either going to fall or fire the pastor. So yes, i do feel like the pastor is linked to the success of the church.

It's not really the pastor though, is it? Nowadays, I'm sure those decisions are made by committees or even assistant pastors. At this point, I doubt Groeschel does much more than read a teleprompter. But even if he does have a hand in the message, if it's not a cult of personality, why not do as many churches do and direct your pastors to deliver a sermon on a certain topic? Why the video linkup? LC is a brand that is too dependent on its CEO. If he goes, the whole thing falls apart. Hence it's a cult of personality.

If you knew me at all, calling me "a cult personality" would be laughable. I'm a moderate in basically all aspects of my life, but following blindly has never been something that's part of me....lol.

Maybe I did a bad job communicating that. I didn't call you a cult of personality. I said you have one over at LC. I presume you go there.

The same is true of any movement you know. How the message is presented is as important as what the message is. Politics is a good example. Those with the good ideas are often behind the scenes while the more (at least theoretically) eloquent folks present it. We all experience this. If you see two people standing on the side of the road holding a "hungry" sign, one dressed in a suit and the other dressed in rags, which are you more likely to believe honestly needs the help? 5 minutes earlier, someone might have given the one man a suit while the other might be ripping people off as he climbs into his BMW.

Politics is a better example than you think. LC, from the marketing materials I've seen is a lot like politics in that it tries to tell the most people it can exactly what they want to hear (rather than what they need to know). I think the last thing Christ would have had in mind is people becoming extremely wealthy sharing Christ's message of love, rejection of material wealth, etc. When you look at what Christianity aspires to be and what sort of kid tested/mother approved message LC (or lack thereof) tends to share, the two don't jive at all.

[Dubya61]

It's interesting how many people seem to rail against the many aspects of religion and are certain they know what Christ would think or do.

[okcboomer]

Catholic priests make roughly 25-30k a year...which I have no problem with. Then you get into people like...

Ken Copeland - private jet and airstrip, $6 million lakefront mansion. Combined salary with wife is around $700k a year from the "church."
John Hagee - Cornerstone in San Antonio makes around $1 million a year in salary.
Charles Blake - $900k salary and 10,000 sq mansion in Beverly Hills.
Benny Hinn - around $1m a year salary.
Joel Osteen - did make $200k from the "church" but was called out and stops pulling a salary, living off book revenue now in his 17,000 sq ft mansion.
Ed Young - Fellowship in Dallas earns $1 million a year in salary from the "church" and has a 10,000 sq ft $1.5 million home.
Franklin Graham - Earn $1.2 million before saying he would donate more and took the salary disclosure private.

How exactly is this Christ-like?

[cagoklahoma]

I completely understand that I will not be able to agree with the views of everyone here, and that’s okay. I can read opposing posts and not be bothered. What I can’t is do is, read post that bash my faith, my church, and our pastor. Especially by those who have never attended a service. Let me start off by saying, I would personally like to invite you to visit any Life Church campus this Sunday. If it’s your first time and you want to sit with someone, please let me know and I will be happy to save a seat. I go to the Oklahoma City campus, it’s at NW 178th and Penn. Two services Saturday evening, four Sunday morning, and one Sunday evening. Pick one and I will be happy to meet you there! If you only come one time, that’s okay. I would prefer some visit our church, see what’s it’s really about, and them make a decision. Once you’ve attended and determine it’s not for you, then post as much as you want about our church.

If you attend the 10:00am Sunday service at the OKC location, you will see Craig “live and in person” which should alleviate the teleprompter notion.

I do not know how much Craig makes, and I don’t believe it’s my business to know that information. It seems that the mainstream non-church goers believe pastors should be destitute, and happy to accept any table scraps from the rest of us, and I don’t understand why that is. It’s unfortunate. I’m not for incredibly high salaries for pastors, but what amount is too much? How much comes from the church? What about their books? I heard Rick Warren tell the story about how he paid back all the salary he had received from his church after the success of his book, A Purpose Driven Life. So how much is too much for a pastor with 6 children.

Instead of talking about “marketing materials”, just come one time.

[BDK]

It seems that the mainstream non-church goers believe pastors should be destitute, and happy to accept any table scraps from the rest of us, and I don’t understand why that is.

I really wanted to stay out of this, and I'm out after this post, but the criticism of these pastors and their churches is not derogation of Christianity. The criticism is founded in the teachings of Jesus found in the gospels.

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.

22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.

24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Luke 18:18-25, King James Version

Luke 18:22 Cross References (14 Verses)

[Dubya61]

and is the practice of criticism found in the teachings of Jesus found in the gospels?

Matthew 7:3 -- Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye but don't notice the log in your own eye?

[BDK]

4"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Matthew 7:4-5

My interpretation of that passage is that it is more an exhortation to address issues within yourself before critiquing others. I don't think the teaching forbids critical examination of others wholesale. That's my layman's interpretation, at least.

[Rover]

Some of the most judgmental people I know are selective about the scripture they quote and take it out of context, quoting it to hold a point in which they need to feel righteous and superior.

Remember, even the devil can quote scripture.

[venture]

Some of the most judgmental people I know are selective about the scripture they quote and take it out of context, quoting it to hold a point in which they need to feel righteous and superior.

Remember, even the devil can quote scripture.

Well that explains a lot about religious figureheads who use it to attack minorities. Devil in shepherd's clothing leading the flock to slaughter so to say.

[Dubya61]

That's fantastic. This forum has even found a way to use citing religious texts as a way to criticize religion.

[Rover]

Well that explains a lot about religious figureheads who use it to attack minorities. Devil in shepherd's clothing leading the flock to slaughter so to say.

I am sure that lots of atheists like to find examples and exaggerate them so as to discredit people of faith. We can look for hypocrites in every walk of life and assume all human organizations are led by evil men. Ministers, priests, etc. are human and some are evil. But most serve God in the best way they know how.

Not sure who you are trying to point out as devils attacking minorities. Be more specific please.

[Garin]

I completely understand that I will not be able to agree with the views of everyone here, and that’s okay. I can read opposing posts and not be bothered. What I can’t is do is, read post that bash my faith, my church, and our pastor. Especially by those who have never attended a service. Let me start off by saying, I would personally like to invite you to visit any Life Church campus this Sunday. If it’s your first time and you want to sit with someone, please let me know and I will be happy to save a seat. I go to the Oklahoma City campus, it’s at NW 178th and Penn. Two services Saturday evening, four Sunday morning, and one Sunday evening. Pick one and I will be happy to meet you there! If you only come one time, that’s okay. I would prefer some visit our church, see what’s it’s really about, and them make a decision. Once you’ve attended and determine it’s not for you, then post as much as you want about our church.

If you attend the 10:00am Sunday service at the OKC location, you will see Craig “live and in person” which should alleviate the teleprompter notion.

I do not know how much Craig makes, and I don’t believe it’s my business to know that information. It seems that the mainstream non-church goers believe pastors should be destitute, and happy to accept any table scraps from the rest of us, and I don’t understand why that is. It’s unfortunate. I’m not for incredibly high salaries for pastors, but what amount is too much? How much comes from the church? What about their books? I heard Rick Warren tell the story about how he paid back all the salary he had received from his church after the success of his book, A Purpose Driven Life. So how much is too much for a pastor with 6 children.

Instead of talking about “marketing materials”, just come one time.

If you tithe to your church it is your business to know where the money is going and how much the pastor is making and all financial reports should be open to all members not guests…. It shouldn't be uncomfortable for anyone to know.