KD Describes Suburban Isolation

[Plutonic Panda]

But that is only temporary. Todays great suburban schools are the next generation's nightmare schools. I am also not sure how great suburban schools even are. Have you seen how poorly America ranks in global tests? Maybe if we spent more on teachers and materials and less on building entire new school districts every 20 to 30 years we could get more bang for our buck.

It's nice to know that virtually ever answer I will ever get from you will be, "it's the fault of suburban sprawl".

[Just the facts]

It's nice to know that virtually ever answer I will ever get from you will be, "it's the fault of suburban sprawl".

If nothing else, I'm consistent.

[Teo9969]

It's nice to know that virtually ever answer I will ever get from you will be, "it's the fault of suburban sprawl".

To be fair to JTF, he's not against suburbs…he's against the development style of suburbs…He doesn't have a problem with *suburban* sprawl, but with suburban *sprawl*.

[Plutonic Panda]

That argument makes no sense. I'll post a new thread showing the suburbs I think are fine. I just don't understand how you can't sprawl out being suburban.

[Just the facts]

To be fair to JTF, he's not against suburbs…he's against the development style of suburbs…He doesn't have a problem with *suburban* sprawl, but with suburban *sprawl*.

Thanks. I don't know why that is hard to understand. On the Rural to Urban Transect T3 is Suburban and it is the 'suburban' most people like. It is the 'suburban' image the marketing people try to instill in the buyer (a great hometown and all the jazz). It is the 'suburban' image the real-estate agent sell you on (location, location, location) - but yet, the builder never delivers in reality, which is why people move every 6 years. If the builder actually built what the marketing people and real-estate agent were selling you then you could live and work in the same neighborhood forever (age in place) - but they don't.

Take Carlton Landing as an example. You can't get more suburban than that - yet it is a real town complete with a waterfront, civic building, and a commercial district with high density housing that decreases in density to the natural fringe. People can live anywhere in the transect they want - and do it all without a car because even from the most remote low density house it is only a 5 minute walk to the store.

All the current 'suburbs' builders build are single use pods with disconnect dendritic street grids that even if you live 50 feet from a store, you have to drive a mile to get to it. And of course, the dendritic street network forces all cars to have to use the same road with no alternative for traffic flow which ensures that congestion will be present.

For those interested in the T-3 suburban zone here are some pictures and design characteristics.

Transect Collection | T-3 SUB-URBAN

[LandRunOkie]

Yes, I am jealous that Edmond has tons of multi millionaires who are more successful than I will ever be

Fixed it for you. Anyone can change someone's post to reflect your agenda. Meanwhile in the real world, Edmond is a great suburb and tons of successful people here who do great good for investing in downtown and adding to OKC's sales tax. The Gold Dome is just one example.

Now that's not very platonic of you...

[warreng88]

I have a few friends who live in north Edmond. One of them to me, really epitomizes the suburban lifestyle. He has two daughters, works 8-5, has a van, a brand new house with a yard in a nice area where his kids can play outside. They very rarely go out and do much of anything and when they do, it is a date night on a Friday when they can get a babysitter.

The other friend is married and has one kid. He and his wife constantly complain that nothing is close to them, the roads are all torn up or in bad shape and they just want to see it fixed. This friend is the problem I have with suburbia. He moved to north Edmond knowing where DT/DD/BT/Midtown was and what it had to offer, but he decides to move a good 20-30 minute drive away from that and then complain that nothing is near him. There aren't any restaurants, shops, activities in the near area and the best way for them to get to work downtown is on Portland/Hefner Parkway, which is scheduled to be widened, but not for another five or so years.

Again, I have no problem with the suburbs if you know what you are getting into but if you move up there just for the schools (which is what it sounds like from my friends and this board) and expect everything to change because you moved up there, then don't complain when things don't change and you are stuck with a house out of your price range and a 30 minute drive to get a good burger.

[Just the facts]

The other friend is married and has one kid. He and his wife constantly complain that nothing is close to them, the roads are all torn up or in bad shape and they just want to see it fixed. This friend is the problem I have with suburbia. He moved to north Edmond knowing where DT/DD/BT/Midtown was and what it had to offer, but he decides to move a good 20-30 minute drive away from that and then complain that nothing is near him. There aren't any restaurants, shops, activities in the near area and the best way for them to get to work downtown is on Portland/Hefner Parkway, which is scheduled to be widened, but not for another five or so years.

This is the 'drive till you qualify' trap. I wish this website was available back when I was looking for a house. It show housing affordability with transportation cost factored in.

Welcome to The H+T Affordability Index

[warreng88]

This is the 'drive till you qualify' trap. I wish this website was available back when I was looking for a house. It show housing affordability with transportation cost factored in.

Welcome to The H+T Affordability Index

That's interesting. I clicked on my neightborhood and the block group was 45.85% in H&T costs % income and it was 18.44% is housing costs % income. When I clicked on my friend's neighborhood, it was 72.29% H&T and 41.44% Housing % cost and 78.59% and 46.31% for the same figures. My house is worth less than half of their houses but I am 10 minutes from downtown and they are 30 minutes from downtown which means they will use a lot more gas to get to the same places I can get to for a lot less. Thanks for the website link.

[jerrywall]

That's interesting. I clicked on my neightborhood and the block group was 45.85% in H&T costs % income and it was 18.44% is housing costs % income. When I clicked on my friend's neighborhood, it was 72.29% H&T and 41.44% Housing % cost and 78.59% and 46.31% for the same figures. My house is worth less than half of their houses but I am 10 minutes from downtown and they are 30 minutes from downtown which means they will use a lot more gas to get to the same places I can get to for a lot less. Thanks for the website link.

The trouble with all that is, it assumes everyone wants to get to the same place, or works in the same areas. If you live downtown, yet your work is in the office complexes behind Quail Springs Mall, then how does all that work out?

[Just the facts]

The trouble with all that is, it assumes everyone wants to get to the same place, or works in the same areas. If you live downtown, yet your work is in the office complexes behind Quail Springs Mall, then how does all that work out?

The algorithm is a little more complicated than that and of course, it is an average for the block group. Some people are above average and some people are below average. For example - it calculates the distance to the nearest grocery store - not as the crow flies, but as the car drives. Suburbia ranks poorly in this category because even when the grocery store is 50 feet from someone's house that have to drive a mile round trip to get to it because of the street network. Retention ponds, landscape buffers, and fences prevent people who can throw a rock and hit their local diner from walking to it.

[warreng88]

The algorithm is a little more complicated than that and of course, it is an average for the block group. Some people are above average and some people are below average.

That's what I was going to say. My cousin lives on 150th and Western and two years ago, he worked downtown. He has since moved to working two miles from his house. All of my other friends I mentioned in the previous post live in North Edmond and work either downtown or around 63rd and Broadway area. I don't know anybody who lives near downtown and work in the Edmond area. I'm sure there are those people out there, but I don't know any of them.

[adaniel]

Fixed it for you. Anyone can change someone's post to reflect your agenda. Meanwhile in the real world, Edmond is a great suburb and tons of successful people here who do great good for investing in downtown and adding to OKC's sales tax. The Gold Dome is just one example.

My post was mocking the ridiculous notion that only successful people live in Edmond and had nothing to do with who supports downtown. Lots of people throughout the metro bust their hump and have made themselves very well off, not just Edmond. Nice try though.

The other friend is married and has one kid. He and his wife constantly complain that nothing is close to them, the roads are all torn up or in bad shape and they just want to see it fixed. This friend is the problem I have with suburbia. He moved to north Edmond knowing where DT/DD/BT/Midtown was and what it had to offer, but he decides to move a good 20-30 minute drive away from that and then complain that nothing is near him. There aren't any restaurants, shops, activities in the near area and the best way for them to get to work downtown is on Portland/Hefner Parkway, which is scheduled to be widened, but not for another five or so years.

Again, I have no problem with the suburbs if you know what you are getting into but if you move up there just for the schools (which is what it sounds like from my friends and this board) and expect everything to change because you moved up there, then don't complain when things don't change and you are stuck with a house out of your price range and a 30 minute drive to get a good burger.

In their defense, I think the majority of people understand what they are getting themselves into when they move to the suburbs. Most people are mature enough to understand that they may be giving up some of some of the thing they enjoy in the city for a bigger house, better schools, etc. Of course you do have people like your friend who frankly want their cake and to eat it to.

I especially don't get people who do not have to worry about school districts but then complain about how bored they are and things here are too focused downtown, blah blah blah. At the end of the day its your choice where to live, and you need to be okay with the trade offs no matter where you go.

[Just the facts]

In their defense, I think the majority of people understand what they are getting themselves into when they move to the suburbs. Most people are mature enough to understand that they may be giving up some of some of the thing they enjoy in the city for a bigger house, better schools, etc. Of course you do have people like your friend who frankly want their cake and to eat it to.

I especially don't get people who do not have to worry about school districts but then complain about how bored they are and things here are too focused downtown, blah blah blah. At the end of the day its your choice where to live, and you need to be okay with the trade offs no matter where you go.

I am not sure most people do know what they are getting into. When we bought our suburban house gasoline was $1.30 per gallon. If someone told me gasoline would go to $3.50 per gallon and cars would go up 50% in price in 10 years I would have picked some place different.

[Plutonic Panda]

Now that's not very platonic of you...

My username was not really meant to be defined in that way. It was meant to signify a Panda is made from Plutonium. I just thought the word(well, it's just a word that I made up) Plutonic Panda sounded better than Plutonium Panda. I made it specifically for m Xbox Live account.

[Plutonic Panda]

My username was not really meant to be defined in that way. It was meant to signify a Panda is made from Plutonium. I just thought the word(well, it's just a word that I made up) Plutonic Panda sounded better than Plutonium Panda. I made it specifically for m Xbox Live account.

I'm sure that reply gave a few chuckles. I didn't mean that I believe all Pandas are made from Plutonium, rather than a fake Panda avatar I made on the internet that was made from Plutonium and radioactive.

[Richard at Remax]

That's what I was going to say. My cousin lives on 150th and Western and two years ago, he worked downtown. He has since moved to working two miles from his house. All of my other friends I mentioned in the previous post live in North Edmond and work either downtown or around 63rd and Broadway area. I don't know anybody who lives near downtown and work in the Edmond area. I'm sure there are those people out there, but I don't know any of them.

I lived in Edgemere and worked in Edmond for the past 4 years until moving up to 150th and western. It was awesome though going against traffic every day.

As for me moving up here I know exactly what I'm getting into. I've had my fun near city core but I just got married and starting a family soon and I'm ok with being 15-20 from downtown. (Plus I sold my Edgemere house for $170 sq/ft. Cha Ching!) But besides thunder games, my group of friends rarely go down there anyway unless we have out of town guests. We all stick to western area and occasionally midtown.

Long story shory both downtown and suburbs have pros and cons, and good things are happening all over the city. but razzing people (not you warreng but in general) for not wanting to live where you want them to is just silly.

[Just the facts]

So you move to the burbs so you can send your kids to school. Now we know why meetings like this one are necessary. When are people going to finally connect the dots?

OKC school, city officials discuss bus system | News OK

on edit - the dots being low density sprawl, dendritic street patterns, and regional schools designed for 750 to 2000 kids. Make smaller neighborhood schools with a connected street network so kids can walk to a local school. Instead of one school with 5 or 6 classrooms for each grade, make 5 small schools that only have one class for each grade.

[Richard at Remax]

I think schools were father down our list because we intend to send them to private. but the schools in our area are highly rated so I can see why some would move up there.

[bradh]

OKCPS doesn't have school buses?

• Reducing the rate at which schoolchildren move from school to school. School board member Ruth Veales said too many families lack fundamental housing security in the city. “Families need stability,” she said.

You know what solves this? Stop the slum apartment complexes offering one month free rent. These families are nomadic, they just jump from free rent to free rent apartment. My cousin is a teacher in a lower income portion of a for the most part excellent school district in a suburb of Houston, and this is what happens with her elementary kids all the time.

[Just the facts]

OKCPS does have school buses but they have the same problem a mass transit bus system has - their customers are spread to thin over an area which raises the cost to overcome the poor city panning.

[adaniel]

Can I throw a monkey wrench into this? What about people in OKC that don't have kids?

Like a lot of things here, this discussion is filtered through a family-oriented prism. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, and frankly if urban areas want to take their growth to the next level they will ultimately need to figure out a way to keep families. With that in mind, a lot of people in my generation (Gen Y) are, for a plethora of reasons, not having kids or waiting much later in life to start having kids. Whether this is a good thing for society at large is up for discussion. I am single, but when I was in an LTR we had discussed not having kids altogether. Even here in conservative Oklahoma, the majority of the people I keep in touch with from college are now nearing 30 and very few are married. And even fewer have children, with a lot still undecided if they will or not. This is nothing revolutionary; at its greatest, it's just an acceleration of trends that have been happening for the past 50 years.

One of the strengths of OKC is that it is very kid-friendly. But if we are talking about isolation, being a single person, or even a childless couple, in the suburbs here is just mind-numbing. Take it from personal experience. My GF at the time traveled a lot so there were lots of times where it was just me. I am a pretty social person and I don't believe I ever felt the sense of isolation that I felt on several occasions in my time in the suburbs. And it wasn't much better when she was in town. My experience could be different because I did not grow up in Oklahoma. And at the time I was having a full blown "quarter-life crisis." But I do know a handful of transplants who had very similar experiences as mine. Not surprisingly, most have moved to Deep Deuce, Midtown, Gatewood, etc. or threw in the towel and left the area.

It would be nice if there were more "fun" areas in more suburban parts of OKC, i.e. Addison in Dallas or Scottsdale in Arizona. But fair or not there isn't. So for people like me, the core is kind of OKC's best hope to keep us around. If it weren't for downtown, I would likely be long gone by now. When I was still living in the burbs but hadn't quite discovered the more urban neighborhoods, I was actually making plans to relocate out of state. OKC is growing nicely, but if we want more people to move and stay here, there must be choices for all walks of life. That means healthy urban and suburban areas.

[Just the facts]

Adaniel - the problem is that OKC suburbs (except Edmond) appear to have no interest in becoming anything other than a commuter bedroom community to OKC offering nothing except a sea of low density subdivisions with strip shopping center thrown in. No wonder GE is looking at the area around downtown OKC. Who wants to be part of that bland landscape if they don't have to be? If Norman just spent half the effort Edmond was making to redeveloped their downtown they could make a really nice place - but all they seem to care about is attracting cars off of I-35 - and then have them drive through Norman as fast as they can (makes a lot of sense doesn't it). Downtown Yukon, Midwest City, Moore, Mustang, The Village, Bethany, Warr Acres, etc etc etc - they don't even exist except in people's memories and old photographs.

[bradh]

Addison in Dallas or Scottsdale in Arizona.

To be fair, Scottsdale really shouldn't even be considered a suburb anymore. Isn't it almost half a million people now? It's like Minneapolis/St. Paul now.

[jerrywall]

When I think of a comparison to Addison in the Dallas metro, I look at what's happening along Memorial road.