Lifechurch.tv building a New Location in North OKC

[Of Sound Mind]

Life Church's parent, Metro Church, was notorious for the pastor saying "we need $150,000 more in today's offering. Bow your heads and let me see 10 people raise their hands to give 15K today". I'm not making that up.

Metrochurch was not Lifechurch's parent — not in the least. Lifechurch existed separately from Metrochurch and was growing significantly completely independent of Metrochurch before the two churches merged. Metrochurch's heritage, and particularly of that first pastor (after which two completely different pastors served subsequently), has never been reflected in Lifechurch.

Note: I am not a member of Lifechurch. I was a member of Metrochurch at the time of the merger and moved on to a new church a few months after the merger.

[BoomerSooner06]

Garin- Please provide a link to backup your statement about accruing debt with new construction projects.

Unaudited 2013 Statement of Activities for LC.tv: https://s3.amazonaws.com/ext.lifechu...or_Website.pdf

[BoomerSooner06]

While I'm not a member of Life Church, I can honestly say that few churches give as generously as LC.

2012 Year in Review Video for LC.tv: https://www.lifechurch.tv/2012review

[cagoklahoma]

The one and only time I attend a life church service as the offering plate was being passed around, the pastor onsite said if anyone needs any of the money in the plate go ahead and take it. I was a little taken back by that approach. They are also building all of these churches on bank loans not cash. IMO thats not being a very good steward with GODS money.

They do not build with loans. There is a fund for the people who call LC home to give to the expansion of future campuses. It is called "Spaces and Places." Not only do they not build by borrowing, they will repurpose a building when possible. For example, NW Expressway campus used to be a Wal-Mart, the Yukon campus also had a previous life before Life Church. Midwest City had a previous life as well. I could continue, but you get my point. By expanding this way, they are able to reduce the cost, while returning life (pun not intended, but still happy) to empty buildings.

The church gives its resources to other churches. FREE. They have some of the very best church software available. Craig just released another book titled Fight and all his proceeds will be returned to the church. They allow people to download the Bible app for free, it is been downloaded over 100,000,000 times around the world.

They are about expanding the Church (capital C) not just their church and they do so by being good stewards.

[bradh]

just wish they (and all these other places) would drop the .tv from their names. It's stupid.

[venture]

just wish they (and all these other places) would drop the .tv from their names. It's stupid.

I've never understood it. Here I thought .org was for non-profits to use. Regardless...tax 'em all. It'll eliminate the concerns of these organizations misappropriating funds to build mansions for the "pastors" since they'll just be regular businesses like everyone else.

[David]

I've never understood it. Here I thought .org was for non-profits to use. Regardless...tax 'em all. It'll eliminate the concerns of these organizations misappropriating funds to build mansions for the "pastors" since they'll just be regular businesses like everyone else.

Let me repeat my question in case you didn't see it. Can you be specific about the legal tax-evasion you believe to be happening?

[bradh]

I've never understood it. Here I thought .org was for non-profits to use. Regardless...tax 'em all. It'll eliminate the concerns of these organizations misappropriating funds to build mansions for the "pastors" since they'll just be regular businesses like everyone else.

The ".tv" thing doesn't help with their public perception to non-church goers, definitely.

[venture]

Let me repeat my question in case you didn't see it. Can you be specific about the legal tax-evasion you believe to be happening?

Catholic priests make roughly 25-30k a year...which I have no problem with. Then you get into people like...

Ken Copeland - private jet and airstrip, $6 million lakefront mansion. Combined salary with wife is around $700k a year from the "church."
John Hagee - Cornerstone in San Antonio makes around $1 million a year in salary.
Charles Blake - $900k salary and 10,000 sq mansion in Beverly Hills.
Benny Hinn - around $1m a year salary.
Joel Osteen - did make $200k from the "church" but was called out and stops pulling a salary, living off book revenue now in his 17,000 sq ft mansion.
Ed Young - Fellowship in Dallas earns $1 million a year in salary from the "church" and has a 10,000 sq ft $1.5 million home.
Franklin Graham - Earn $1.2 million before saying he would donate more and took the salary disclosure private.

How exactly can a non-profit that should be acting in the ministry, doing God's work, and take care of people...afford to pay pastors that much? Sure the person will get hit with income taxes, unless they find enough deductions, but the "church" isn't being hit with income tax. To be clear, I'm for ALL non-profits to lose tax exempt status. No more exemptions - no more deductions.

[Sonny_Crockett]

I know for a fact that the BGCO and most Southern Baptist churches in Oklahoma are against Life Church for several reasons (mostly because they're "Seeker Sensitive" and follow Rick Warren's model.) BGCO has also claimed that adults 18-45 leave SBC churches to attend Lifechurch/Victory Church/Journey Church etc.

Lifechurch's worship tends mixes in "secular" pop music into services and the reason for this is to bring in non-believers and make them feel comfortable.

Craig Groeschel doesn't endorse the prosperity/word of faith/TBN doctrine though he has endorsed TBN/The PTL Club/Joel Osteen/Kenneth Copeland/Joyce Meyer etc. and has spoken at Prosperity Churches like Hillsong Australia.

Groeschel was one of, if not the curator for "Multi-Site" churches. So if you attend a Lifechurch campus outside the main Edmond Campus, you watch Groeschel's sermons on the big screen. Also, many evangelicals like John MacArthur and John Piper have slammed "multi-church" sites and Groeschel in particular.

[David]

Okay, that's what I was wondering about.

I can't say I have the same concern since the pastors themselves are paying income tax, but I can see where you are coming from.

[cagoklahoma]

Venture,

Let me start by saying that I can understand your concerns regarding the 501c (#) tax exempt status. For many organizations, I would even agree. For example the NFL is a 501c(6) and is therefore exempt from taxation. So I agree that there is a definite need to reevaluate some of the subsections of the USTC Section 501. To remove that coveted status would have negative consequences in cities across the country as well as in countries around the world (not all non-profit work is done within our borders). Profit motive is the primary difference between non-profits and for profit organizations (FPO). We as a society have become dependent upon charitable organizations to do much of the work that typical FPO’s wouldn’t do. FPO’s would not do the charitable work of most non-profits because they wouldn’t make any money. Investors don’t really like doing charity.

I don’t believe the removal of tax exemption would be as big of a hit to Church as it would be to other service organizations, universities, chambers of commerce, and other social groups. Tithers don’t typically tithe because of the tax shelters. We do so because of our faith. There are plenty of ways to reduce tax liability that are perfectly legal, and the Church is not one of them.

[Snowman]

I've never understood it. Here I thought .org was for non-profits to use. Regardless...tax 'em all. It'll eliminate the concerns of these organizations misappropriating funds to build mansions for the "pastors" since they'll just be regular businesses like everyone else.

.org is an option for non profits but by no means a requirement, also it started out as more of a pain to obtain since you had do a verification step verses just sending in money and be done with it but even the requirement for non-profit status has been relaxed somewhat over time. Still a lot, if not most, organizations run with .com since that is what most people think when they think of a url.

.tv, .net, .info and other domains while never as popular as .com were also generally cheaper to buy and easier to get the name you want (though that may mean someone else could have the same second level domain name on a more popular top level domain). I heard a few years ago that .com has had at least ten times as many sites as all the rest combined. Often though they will buy the same second level domains from multiple top level domains, choose which one to serve all requests from and forward all the others to that, though some will use the specialized ones like tv or info for a sub-site that deals with that type of media.

[RadicalModerate]

That whole .tv thing had me a little flummoxed for awhile.
I thought it was a plot by that Dayspring media dude to take over Christendom.
Turns out the "tv" after the dot stands for Tuvalu.
If you wanted to have an offshore bank account, that would be the place to have it.

[Dustin]

Goodness... How many churches is this now? 20?

[Dustin]

Also, I have family that attends life church and they love it.

I'm not big on church or religion, but I hear if you want to go to a church that is less preachy and more singing and dancing, this is the place to be.

[bombermwc]

So far I haven't really seen any reasons here (at least informed ones) of why folks have a problem with Life Church.

And for those that discount the pre-recorded sermon, i hear you. There is something lost in not being able to interact with your congregation as you give the sermon. A church lives or dies by its pastor. If you attend LC, you probably like him. Each site has their own pastor, but the main guy is this man. So i'd like to know how else you can give a sermon in 20 different sites (6 or 7 times a day might i add) if you dont do it this way. If you go live, the cost of that is astronaumical compared to just playing a video (which is now prepped for online as well). As i've said many times, it's not for me, but i can appreciate why things are done this way.....and a lot of people are receptive to that. Especially with today's media focus, "watching" your pastor on "tv" can attract more interest (and think the younger congregation too) than a pulpit.

[venture]

Since when is cost a concern for spreading the word of God? When that starts to become an issue, you know you've changed to a for-profit model (with in the guidelines of the law to see be "non-profit") and less about being a church preaching to the flock.

[Rover]

Being prudent with your resources (conscious of costs) is very relevant and is an appropriate issue with churches. The implication that cost responsibility is somehow anti Christian is just ignorance.

[Midtowner]

I would care to guess it would be high $ property tax evasion on their parsonages...?

Their parsonage, which is owned by the church and tax-exempt? Their cars which are owned by the church? I knew a priest once who had his own personal chef paid for by the church.

As with anyplace, in the religious world, it's good to be the king.

[Midtowner]

So far I haven't really seen any reasons here (at least informed ones) of why folks have a problem with Life Church.

And for those that discount the pre-recorded sermon, i hear you. There is something lost in not being able to interact with your congregation as you give the sermon. A church lives or dies by its pastor. If you attend LC, you probably like him. Each site has their own pastor, but the main guy is this man. So i'd like to know how else you can give a sermon in 20 different sites (6 or 7 times a day might i add) if you dont do it this way. If you go live, the cost of that is astronaumical compared to just playing a video (which is now prepped for online as well). As i've said many times, it's not for me, but i can appreciate why things are done this way.....and a lot of people are receptive to that. Especially with today's media focus, "watching" your pastor on "tv" can attract more interest (and think the younger congregation too) than a pulpit.

Seems to me you have a cult of personality. If LC wouldn't be LC without Mr. Groeschel, is LC more about their leader or more about their message? Messages don't depend on the deliveryman to ring true or not.

[venture]

Being prudent with your resources (conscious of costs) is very relevant and is an appropriate issue with churches. The implication that cost responsibility is somehow anti Christian is just ignorance.

If cost is a concern, then why spread themselves out so thin? Sure I've seen Catholic parishes close and consolidate due to costs, but they also don't have the high expenses that these big box "churches" willingly take on. If cost was an issue, maybe there should be more prudent purchasing. Does a church really need this?

[Dubya61]

If cost was an issue, maybe there should be more prudent purchasing. Does a church really need this?

I mostly agree with you on the tax thing, but ...
Yes, a church really needs that if it's what connects to the people who want it.
There are a lot of flavors of church, and this particular flavor doesn't suit me (or bomberMWC or venture79, apparently), but it suits some, and if that's the way that they choose to tend to their spiritual needs, then it's fine by me.

[venture]

I mostly agree with you on the tax thing, but ...
Yes, a church really needs that if it's what connects to the people who want it.
There are a lot of flavors of church, and this particular flavor doesn't suit me (or bomberMWC or venture79, apparently), but it suits some, and if that's the way that they choose to tend to their spiritual needs, then it's fine by me.

I suppose I can agree with that.

[boscorama]

Sometimes it depends on what people want in a church. If you want to be a big fish in a small pond, a small church really needs people like you. If you want to blend in and flee at the end of the service, contributing nothing except some bucks in the offering plate, a mega church is a God send (npi).