Last Trace Of Old Streetcar Route?

[Praedura]

(Note: I was debating with myself whether to post this under Transit or Nostalgia... and opted for here.)

Came across an interesting photo at this link:

Travel to U.S.: Oklahoma: Midtown Oklahoma City with the The Great Mirror



It comes with this intriguing caption:

"This is probably the only place in the city where the streetcar system is remembered: the triangle is the former University Station,
where students from Epworth University could catch a streetcar going downtown. Yes, this is Classen Boulevard, above 17th."

So a remaining monument and, what appears to be a cast iron sculpture of a trolley car.

On the monument, I can make out:

UNIVERSITY
STATION

1904

GATEWOOD
HISTORIC
DISTRICT

And that's it.

I assume the monument is still there. Is the trolley sculpture still around?

[Martin]

didn't know that was there. google streetview still shows both the monument and the trolley... so i'd assume they're still around.

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&l...185.86,,0,4.15

-M

[Jim Kyle]

Yep, still there. I remember the station well, although it was called "the 17th Street Station" when I went through it twice a day for three and a half months in late 1946, going to and from Classen High School from my very temporary home in the 300 block of NW 13, via the Belle Isle (in the morning) and Culbertson (in the afternoon) cars. I caught the streetcar at NW 13 and Robinson Place (that very short street halfway between Broadway and Robinson, from NW 13 down to Broadway Circle). It trundled down Broadway to Main, west on Main to Olie (now Classen), and up Olie/Classen to the station.

The "University" name stems from the fact that Oklahoma City University began at a location immediately west of Classen High School; its original name was Epworth University, and the building later became (and still is) a church. I have a copy of a photo from pre-WW1 days that shows the station, with the university in the background, and not another structure in the vicinity...

In December of 1946 my parents closed on a house near NW 20 and May, which remained in the family until 1998 or so when my youngest son sold it and moved to Oregon; I then rode a bus to school, from NW 17 and May. I did ride the streetcar a few more times, though, when I took a part-time job at 315 N. Broadway, under the half-day work permit arrangement allowed at the time.

[Praedura]

^ Great memories! That's fascinating to read about.

If you are able to post that photo of the station, that would be great.

I also have a question (or several, actually), if you don't mind. You might be one of the few (heck, maybe only) member(s) of this board that personally remembers riding the old streetcars in OKC. I'd be interested in what the experience was like.

Now these modern streetcars that run in other cities -- and that we're about to get -- are very slick and comfortable. Nice temperature control (heat/AC) and soft, comfy seats, along a fairly smooth ride. Ok, maybe a little minor wobble here and there, but mostly very nice.

But... in my mind, when I see the pics of the old streetcars, while it all looks quaint and even rather attractive, I imagine that the actual ride was not so nice, at least by modern standards. I think of rudimentary heating that left it still somewhat chilly in the winter, and then no AC in the summer -- just windows rolled down in a stuffy interior. And I also imagine them as being kind of noisy and bumpy, with the passengers being jossled around a fair bit.

But maybe I'm being too harsh. What was your experience? Did you find them fun to ride, or was it more like a pain-in-the-you-know what? Was it an enjoyable way to get from A to B, or were you thinking at the time "Man, I can't wait til I get my own car so I can stop riding these stupid things!" Or maybe it was so much a standard part of life at the time, that you didn't think much about one way or the other.

In any event, thanks for the background info.

[OKCisOK4me]

Praedura, please note that the streetcar tracks are still on 4th Street beneath the BNSF viaduct...

[Jim Kyle]

^ Great memories! That's fascinating to read about.

If you are able to post that photo of the station, that would be great.

I also have a question (or several, actually), if you don't mind. You might be one of the few (heck, maybe only) member(s) of this board that personally remembers riding the old streetcars in OKC. I'd be interested in what the experience was like.

It was much, much more comfortable than the buses that replaced the streetcars, but nothing at all like today's streetcars. Temperature control consisted solely of the windows; you could have them open in summer and closed in winter. Warming on cold days came from the passengers' body heat; no stoves or heaters. The seat backs were wicker, double-sided. At the end of the line, the operator would remove the control handle, raise the trolley pole at what had been the front of the car but was now the back, then walk the length of the car flipping seatbacks as he went. When he got to the new front position, he put the handle back on the controller, lowered the pole, and opened the door to let passengers board. The cars were double-ended so there was no need to turn them around!

At the Main and Olie/Classen intersection, the operator would use a long tool to switch the rails from going south (to Packingtown via Exchange Avenue) to north on Olie. Similar switches existed at Main and Hudson to allow access to the terminal facility on Grand, and also elsewhere along the routes. The cars never moved very fast -- 10 to 15 MPH on average, as I recall, though they might have gotten up to 25 or 30 in places.

The old Linwood route ran from downtown along Linwood Boulevard from Western up along Virginia to NW 12, then turned to the west and followed NW 12 out past May where it turned north along Drexel to NW 19, then west on NW 19 to a block west of Independence where it stopped although the rails went on to connect to the belt line steam railway. I dimly recall riding that around 1940, and don't remember the route between downtown and Linwood Boulevard.

I'll have to dig out that photo. I think it came from one of Jim Edwards's volumes of OKC postcards, the "Vanished Splendor" three-volume series, but might have been something I found on line...

[rezman]

There are still rails visible in the street about 18th or 19th & Youngs.

There is also old east west right of way still visible, that runs behind the houses between NW 40th & 41st streets, between Penn & Classen, left over from the line from 39th street where it tied into the Classen line.

[OKCisOK4me]

There are still rails visible in the street about 18th or 19th & Youngs.

There is also old east west right of way still visible, that runs behind the houses between NW 40th & 41st streets, between Penn & Classen, left over from the line from 39th street where it tied into the Classen line.

That's where that is! I knew there were still visible tracks somewhere WNW of downtown. Thank you!

[BDK]

Bit of a tangent, but I took a few of Bret Wallach's courses in undergrad. He was probably my favorite teacher in all of undergrad.

(Prof. Wallach runs the Great Mirror site.)

[OKCisOK4me]

Bit of a tangent, but I took a few of Bret Wallach's courses in undergrad. He was probably my favorite teacher in all of undergrad.

(Prof. Wallach runs the Great Mirror site.)

For those of us that don't know who that is, maybe you can enlighten us? Any relation to the inventor of the cotton gin? Cause that's the only Wallach I know of...

[BDK]

For those of us that don't know who that is, maybe you can enlighten us? Any relation to the inventor of the cotton gin? Cause that's the only Wallach I know of...

Bret Wallach - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And I thought the inventor of the cotton gin was Eli Whitney...

[Praedura]

Interesting. I thought that every inch of track had been pulled.

Well, they probably got tired of it at some point, and figured they had spent enough time and money and said, "good enough".

[Praedura]

It was much, much more comfortable than the buses that replaced the streetcars, but nothing at all like today's streetcars. Temperature control consisted solely of the windows; you could have them open in summer and closed in winter. Warming on cold days came from the passengers' body heat; no stoves or heaters. The seat backs were wicker, double-sided. At the end of the line, the operator would remove the control handle, raise the trolley pole at what had been the front of the car but was now the back, then walk the length of the car flipping seatbacks as he went. When he got to the new front position, he put the handle back on the controller, lowered the pole, and opened the door to let passengers board. The cars were double-ended so there was no need to turn them around!
....

Thanks for that insight.

Sounds pretty rudimentary. But it was probably fine for back then. Hey... much better than walking miles and miles!

The new streetcars will be double-ended too, so some things stay the same.

[rezman]

Here's a street view link from N. Kentucky street looking west between 40th & 41st.

https://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=...,281.48,,0,2.4

From N Penn looking east.

https://maps.google.com/?ll=35.51315...,95.35,,0,5.61

And, .. 19th & Youngs

https://maps.google.com/?ll=35.48903...2,209,,0,18.22

[OKCisOK4me]

Here's a street view link from N. Kentucky street looking west between 40th & 41st.

https://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=...,281.48,,0,2.4

From N Penn looking east.

https://maps.google.com/?ll=35.51315...,95.35,,0,5.61

And, .. 19th & Youngs

https://maps.google.com/?ll=35.48903...2,209,,0,18.22

I just opened this thread again to see what new posts were made and I already had another tab open for Google Maps, lol. Thanks again Rezman!

They're imbedded at 20th as well.

[Jim Kyle]

There are still rails visible in the street about 18th or 19th & Youngs.

There is also old east west right of way still visible, that runs behind the houses between NW 40th & 41st streets, between Penn & Classen, left over from the line from 39th street where it tied into the Classen line.

That was the interurban line out to El Reno, which peeled off from Classen just north of NW 39 and ran parallel to NW 39 all the way out past Lake Overholser. The "new" NW 39 bridge west of Council is exactly where the interurban bridge was located. For years there was a former station just east of MacArthur that became part of the Putnam City Schools' administrative headquarters. I didn't know that any of the rails had survived to this day, though.

The rails still visible around Youngs were part of a line that ran out to Shepherd's Lake before 1940 or so; it had been out of service for years by the time I was riding the cars though. Another line came up McKinley past the park (north of NW 10) and into the Plaza District area but stopped short at NW 16... That one, too, had been abandoned by the time I became familiar with the routes.

The Culbertson line ran on east on NE 13 from Broadway to Culbertson, then north to the Capitol area and ended behind the old Historical Society building. The Belle Isle route continued north from 17th street to the Belle Isle area and ended there.

At one time the interurbans ran up to Guthrie and down to Norman; the Interurban restaurants got their name from the original located inside the Norman station, which was still active in the 1940s but shut down around the same time as the in-city cars -- 1947/48 -- however the station served Oklahoma Transportation Company buses for quite some time afterward...

[Martin]

you are a wealth of information, jim... really enjoy reading your posts.

did the interurban to norman follow old highway 77? -M

[Jim Kyle]

It was within sight of it for the most part; was to the east of Shields as I recall but ran pretty close to the AT&SF rails by the time it got to Moore...

[OKCisOK4me]

Jim, I wish some pics were available of the 40th/41st Street line only because I'd like to see how the interurban rails interacted with the Union Pacific (then Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific) rails that were part of that industrial spur that came up from just west of the fairgrounds to the Bethany area and also went over to the old Belle Isle Power Plant.

you are a wealth of information, jim... really enjoy reading your posts.

did the interurban to norman follow old highway 77? -M

Based on what I've seen in Doug Dawgs Blog, I think the interurban ran south through the middle of downtown Moore and down Broadway toward Norman.

Because a lot of the area between Edmond and Guthrie is more rural and very few residential, you can still make out about 70% of the line using Google Maps.

Had a friend that used to live on the southeast corner of Liberty Lake between Seward & Forrest Hills Road. If you look closely, you can see the old interurban grade right here. It meanders south/southwesterly til it comes out on the east property line of a horse barn right on the NE corner of Coffee Creek & Broadway in North Edmond.

[Martin]

I think the interurban ran south through the middle of downtown Moore and down Broadway toward Norman.

sounds about right... old highway 77 ran on broadway in moore. -M

[Jim Kyle]

Jim, I wish some pics were available of the 40th/41st Street line only because I'd like to see how the interurban rails interacted with the Union Pacific (then Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific) rails that were part of that industrial spur that came up from just west of the fairgrounds to the Bethany area and also went over to the old Belle Isle Power Plant.

That spur, as I recall it, ran almost exactly where the Parkway now exists; it was immediately to the west of Linwood School. I remember that vividly because when I was in the third grade at Linwood, a highschooler fell under a train while trying to ride the rails hobo-style, and got a leg cut off. All us kids went down to see the site, but the principal had already been there and covered the bloodstains on the ties with dirt...

Between NW 36 and NW 39, the N-S line tied into an E-W line that had a viaduct over Grand Blvd about where the big interchange is now. West of Portland, the tracks still existed when I worked at the G-E plant's Building 2 (on MW 36 just east of Tulsa) in the late 60s. They ended just short of Portland, at that time. I'm not sure where they ran, once west of Tulsa, but from time to time a boxcar would be routed onto them so than had to make connection to the belt line somewhere. I believe there was a north-south line that crossed NW 36 just west of Ann Arbor, and that might have been the connection...

That E-W spur didn't connect at all with the interurban tracks; the spur was south of NW 39 while the interurban line was north of it. FWIW, the westbound lanes of NW 39 essentially follow the old interurban right-of-way while the eastbound lanes follow the initial alignment of the street (up to the interchange, that is; then both lanes begin to curve to the north).

[rezman]

The Rock Island spur that came off of the east west line between 10th and Reno came north, just to the east of Ann Arbor and ran up to 39th street, where it turned east west. It ran just to the west of Macarthur, where it served a lumber yard behind the old Western Auto store. To the east, several industries including Big L, Wilsey-Bennet, and Norick Brothers, among others, as it ran across Grand Blvd , served Utility Tower, and came up short of May Ave, behind the old Dub Richardson Ford dealership. The line did not have any interaction with the 39th street interurban line.

[Urbanized]

There are also some tracks left in the ground underneath the BNSF railroad viaduct just east of 4th and Broadway by the downtown YMCA.

Regarding no A/C in the streetcars, I will posit that you probably simply didn't notice it. A/C was pretty uncommon in houses at the time and basically nonexistent in automobiles if you were lucky enough to ride in one. I don't think AC became more-or-less standard in cars until maybe the 1980s or at the very least late 70s. I spent my childhood riding around in cars with the windows rolled down and never once wished we had A/C, because I didn't know better.

If you were lucky, your house had a window unit in the living room that the family sat in front of before heading off to box fans and sweaty bed sheets for the night. And A/C at places like school or church? Perish the thought.

People were just made of hardier stock then, and I suppose they were even tougher before I was born in the sixties.

[Jim Kyle]

If you were lucky, your house had a window unit in the living room that the family sat in front of before heading off to box fans and sweaty bed sheets for the night. And A/C at places like school or church? Perish the thought.

People were just made of hardier stock then, and I suppose they were even tougher before I was born in the sixties.

Some time in the late 40s, my dad BUILT a swamp cooler out of 3/4-inch plywood, a 1/3-HP electric motor, and an attic-fan blade, for our house at NW 20 and May. It improved things slightly, but with the usual high humidity of a Sooner summer, didn't do enough to warrant the effort. It DID give me a lifelong bias against swamp coolers, though.

I think it was 1954 before I enjoyed my first window unit...

[Martin]

i just realized that i own a book about trolleys in oklahoma... when oklahoma took the trolley. here's an undated map of okc's system scanned from that book: