OKC Light Rail System?

[venture]

True, but there are several more destination areas between Ann Arbor and Detroit than there are between Norman and OKC.

Not disagreeing. Just gives us a good idea of costs and such to help evaluate the best option here.

[LakeEffect]

Passenger trains haul people. While a person can be dangerous - they won't explode in a crash. They are already testing CNG on freight trains. It is one thing to crash and blow up a box-car full of DVD players, it is another thing to crash and blow up 200 people going to work. The destructive force of a train crash is orders of magnitude larger than a car crash. I'm not saying a CNG locomotive would be the Ford Pinto of the railroad world but safety requirements for freight trains aren't even in the same ballpark as safety requirements for passenger trains and the operating cost savings for a CNG fueled passenger train probably isn't worth the cost of maintaining a CNG refueling station. Union Pacific says they use something like 1.6 billion gallons of diesel fuel so if they just save a few cents per gallon it adds up for them. A commuter rail system won't use 0.01% of that.

Anyhow, I just wanted to add some context to my previous post and don't want to turn this into a diesel-cng debate either so that will be my last comment on it. . I'll give someone else the final word

UP and BNSF have tested LNG, not CNG...

[Just the facts]

RFD-TV (that's right - Rural Television) had an hour long documentary on the other night about the ACE (Altamonte Commuter Rail) from Stockton to San Jose. It was pretty good so I watched it twice. I looked to see if it was coming again but nothing showed up for the next 2 weeks. Anyhow, they followed the number 3 train from Stockton as it made it's way to San Jose. They did a brief overview of each station and noted historical structures along the way. They also touched on how the commuter rail interacts with freight service as well as CalTrain,, Amtrak California, and Valley Transit Authority light-rail. Keep an eye out for it as it was pretty good.

I was surprised by how much rail activity there is in the South Bay. My son came in about half way through and started watching it. About 10 minutes into his viewing he asked me what country it was because he kept hearing city names he knew but didn't know that much passenger rail activity was taking place.

[OKVision4U]

JTF, you made mention to finding a "replacement" for the interstate system that would be "cost less to maintain". This new Regional Light Rail system would be the start to moving a large volume of people to rail, and getting them away from the interstates. Less congestion. This would extend the life of our existing interstate structures.

If we are to beef-up our interstate system by the next 20 years, that cost is going to be a ( 2X ) cost today vs. tomorrow's cost + new modifications. Let's funnel those dollars to the next generation system today of High Speed Rail.

...and this needs to be built near interstates so it can take advantage of the existing structure & greater volume of people. ...not having them funneled to the older path of commerce.

[OKCisOK4me]

JTF, you made mention to finding a "replacement" for the interstate system that would be "cost less to maintain". This new Regional Light Rail system would be the start to moving a large volume of people to rail, and getting them away from the interstates. Less congestion. This would extend the life of our existing interstate structures.

If we are to beef-up our interstate system by the next 20 years, that cost is going to be a ( 2X ) cost today vs. tomorrow's cost + new modifications. Let's funnel those dollars to the next generation system today of High Speed Rail.

...and this needs to be built near interstates so it can take advantage of the existing structure & greater volume of people. ...not having them funneled to the older path of commerce.

I still think you need to consider making your platform public. Sharing your sentiments on here is a noble effort, but the only way you're going to make an impact is to do what Bob Kemper did--start a public outcry group, ala Friends for a Better Boulevard. Your group could be called, "Expensive As Hell Rail But More Effective Cost Wise in the Long Term" group.

[Just the facts]

One thing - rail doesn't reduce congestion on the interstates. Latent demand will just fill in any gaps from people who opt to take the train. Create enough freeway capacity thru people opting for rail and sprawl will just continue to spread as some people will always opt to 'drive until they qualify'.

A lot of people think we can keep building interstate and build rail - we can't. We need to not only stop new freeway construction, we need to start tearing out old interstates as they reach the end of the lifespan. For example, I-40 through downtown should have never been rebuilt. We should have just taken it out and thru traffic diverted to I-240. We would have saved $600 million dollars. That money could have then been used to implement a regional rail system that has a fraction of the long-term maintenance costs of a new interstate.

[SouthsideSooner]

One thing - rail doesn't reduce congestion on the interstates. Latent demand will just fill in any gaps from people who opt to take the train. Create enough freeway capacity thru people opting for rail and sprawl will just continue to spread as some people will always opt to 'drive until they qualify'.

A lot of people think we can keep building interstate and build rail - we can't. We need to not only stop new freeway construction, we need to start tearing out old interstates as they reach the end of the lifespan. For example, I-40 through downtown should have never been rebuilt. We should have just taken it out and thru traffic diverted to I-240. We would have saved $600 million dollars. That money could have then been used to implement a regional rail system that has a fraction of the long-term maintenance costs of a new interstate.

Yep... Let's just stop repairing streets all together and be much more progressive in our move towards sustainable transportation and do a Maps 4 for a return to the past... Livery stables, horse barns, stagecoach's and wagons... Hell lets even throw chariots in to the mix...

Green acres buddy... Petticoat junction...

I can hear the discussion amongst the early pioneers talking about how "you can't keep growing west, it's unsustainable! "

It just makes your comments so much more ridiculous when we all know that you live in the burbs and drive a car to get where you need to be... If everything you preach was so certain, you would think that you could/would have found a way to live it...

In one form or another, personal transportation vehicles will always be the future and it will always be sustainable barring something attune to a total zombie apocalypse...

[Plutonic Panda]

One thing - rail doesn't reduce congestion on the interstates. Latent demand will just fill in any gaps from people who opt to take the train. Create enough freeway capacity thru people opting for rail and sprawl will just continue to spread as some people will always opt to 'drive until they qualify'.

A lot of people think we can keep building interstate and build rail - we can't. We need to not only stop new freeway construction, we need to start tearing out old interstates as they reach the end of the lifespan. For example, I-40 through downtown should have never been rebuilt. We should have just taken it out and thru traffic diverted to I-240. We would have saved $600 million dollars. That money could have then been used to implement a regional rail system that has a fraction of the long-term maintenance costs of a new interstate.

What you want is never going to happen. As it has already been said, cars will always be the future. People are not looking to give their personal vehicles. Car sales this year have already reached record levels. I like our interstates and we should keep funding them. We can also create a new tax and let states partner up together to decide if a HSR is feasible for them.

[Garin]

Those that support rail in Oklahoma should be the first to give up the cars. It is time to put up or shut up and no complaining that the bus system stinks, you can always ride a bike or walk where you're going.

[Just the facts]

Those that support rail in Oklahoma should be the first to give up the cars. It is time to put up or shut up and no complaining that the bus system stinks, you can always ride a bike or walk where you're going.

Create a built environment that does require cars and people will stop needing them. Personally, I am tired of how much I have to spend on transportation costs just to participate in society. There are a lot of other things I would like to spend those dollars on.

[bchris02]

Light rail can exist in a suburban dominated city. It's working pretty well in Charlotte, which for the most part is sprawling suburbia just like OKC, and has really spurred the kind of residential growth that many would like to see happen in OKC. I really think the city should have pushed light rail for MAPS 3 rather than the streetcar. Light rail would benefit the metro as a whole and would have probably spurred more gentrification of other areas a little ways out of downtown such as 23rd St.

[OKVision4U]

Light rail can exist in a suburban dominated city. It's working pretty well in Charlotte, which for the most part is sprawling suburbia just like OKC, and has really spurred the kind of residential growth that many would like to see happen in OKC. I really think the city should have pushed light rail for MAPS 3 rather than the streetcar. Light rail would benefit the metro as a whole and would have probably spurred more gentrification of other areas a little ways out of downtown such as 23rd St.

Charlotte is a modern city that is better example than any "rust belt / east coast" city for comparison. The layout of OKC is perfect for the High Speed Light Rail for the metro. It is a must.

[venture]

Charlotte is a modern city that is better example than any "rust belt / east coast" city for comparison. The layout of OKC is perfect for the High Speed Light Rail for the metro. It is a must.

HSR for commuter rail in the Metro is simply not going to happen. There are very few examples of HSR being used as commuter rail and it is usually to connect cities that are 75-150 miles apart. If you wanted people in OKC and TUL to commute back and forth, that is one thing. It isn't going to work for those in Norman going Downtown. What we need is a smart and extensive commuter rail system connecting the communities in the Metro area and with in say 75 miles of the city. HSR needs to be reserved for connecting to Dallas-Houston as well as Kansas City/St. Louis-Chicago from here.

[betts]

While I haven't given up my car completely, I have reduced my annual miles driven by half since I moved downtown. My husband, unfortunately, has to drive farther to work since we moved. But the majority of things we can do in the evening we reach by walking. Some of that is a change in how we see things now. We used to drive distances before to get to a coffee shop, for example, that now we consider walking distance. But were there better public transit, we would happily drop down to one car. Three members of my family live in Chicago and they have one car between the 3. I have a daughter in San Francisco who chose to sell her can when she moved there. I didn't own a car when I lived in Denver and I would look forward to that kind of freedom myself if I lived in a city with good public transportation. A few people going carless here won't change transit, but its already changing with work being done on an RTD. As voters, we need to support taxes to improve public transportation and let our elected officials know we want it.

[OKVision4U]

HSR for commuter rail in the Metro is simply not going to happen. There are very few examples of HSR being used as commuter rail and it is usually to connect cities that are 75-150 miles apart. If you wanted people in OKC and TUL to commute back and forth, that is one thing. It isn't going to work for those in Norman going Downtown. What we need is a smart and extensive commuter rail system connecting the communities in the Metro area and with in say 75 miles of the city. HSR needs to be reserved for connecting to Dallas-Houston as well as Kansas City/St. Louis-Chicago from here.

...No, I think our Central US location from LA to NYC / San Fran to DC / Orlando to Portland / Chicago to San Antonio puts OKC in a great position ( much easier & less espensive up-front cost vs. Dallas ) OKC needs to be this. We need to be the HUB for the US. This is what makes sense.

...and don't wait on the airlines support here either. We are the flyover to them. It will be the HSR community that looks at OKC as the HUB of operation(s).

[betts]

ouch

While I wish that weren't true, I think it is. I think we have to be more proactive than leading by example. Politicians respond to numbers as well as squeaky wheels. The first place to start may be pushing for Sunday bus service, since the bus system is already doing some reorganizing. I don't think we're going to see major changes until we get an RTD and pass a transit tax.

[venture]

...No, I think our Central US location from LA to NYC / San Fran to DC / Orlando to Portland / Chicago to San Antonio puts OKC in a great position ( much easier & less espensive up-front cost vs. Dallas ) OKC needs to be this. We need to be the HUB for the US. This is what makes sense.

...and don't wait on the airlines support here either. We are the flyover to them. It will be the HSR community that looks at OKC as the HUB of operation(s).

What? We are talking about two different things. This thread is about an OKC system, not a national HSR system. Please keep your topics straight.

[OKVision4U]

What? We are talking about two different things. This thread is about an OKC system, not a national HSR system. Please keep your topics straight.

Venture, this is exactly what I am saying... Our OKC HSR needs to be "In Place" to accommidate the National needs. As a city / state, we don't need to spend this twice.

[hoya]

Light and/or commuter rail will allow for more development downtown. We can have a lot more density when every person who steps foot there does not require a parking space.

[hoya]

Venture, this is exactly what I am saying... Our OKC HSR needs to be "In Place" to accommidate the National needs. As a city / state, we don't need to spend this twice.

We have zero guarantee that HSR will ever be a reality in the US. People have proposed it, but there's little political will for it. If it starts to become a reality we should jump out in front as quickly as possible. But I'm not ready to sink a few billion dollars into developing this and then having no one else jump on board.

[Plutonic Panda]

We have zero guarantee that HSR will ever be a reality in the US. People have proposed it, but there's little political will for it. If it starts to become a reality we should jump out in front as quickly as possible. But I'm not ready to sink a few billion dollars into developing this and then having no one else jump on board.

a few billion????? Try a few trillion, maybe ,

California High Speed Rail Authority - State of California

[Plutonic Panda]

California High-Speed Rail - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

98.1 billion final estimated full build cost

[OKVision4U]

We have zero guarantee that HSR will ever be a reality in the US. People have proposed it, but there's little political will for it. If it starts to become a reality we should jump out in front as quickly as possible. But I'm not ready to sink a few billion dollars into developing this and then having no one else jump on board.

If we wait on the existing industries ( Railroad / Auto / Airlines ) they are the ones that have the most to lose.

This is OUR chance to be something different. Let's get this going for our OKC Metro Cities and let us begin to have a commerce boom / Universities connected , etc.

[venture]

Venture, this is exactly what I am saying... Our OKC HSR needs to be "In Place" to accommidate the National needs. As a city / state, we don't need to spend this twice.

There is no point to have a local HSR option. A local network also doesn't need to be high speed to accommodate passengers connecting to a local market. If someone is taking a HSR train in from Dallas or St. Louis...they won't care if they are going to be on standard commuter/light rail from Downtown to Norman. It really isn't going to make a huge difference in travel times due to the number of stops that will likely need to be made.

[OKVision4U]

a few billion????? Try a few trillion, maybe ,

California High Speed Rail Authority - State of California

Not even close to that. THose are the big numbers the others want you to believe.

OKC Metro is flat ( not the Sierras / Rockies to build over). Try $20 M p/m.