OKC Light Rail System?

[PhiAlpha]

Can you provide a picture of what you mean by 'Heavy Diesel Engine' because I picture this when you say that. This is something a freight railroad would use.



But most new non-electric commuter rail systems use these MPXpress Commuter Locomotives made by MotivePower.



Yes, they both burn diesel but comparing them is like comparing a dump truck to a BMW 535d.

It would be cool it we could get something like this and run it on LNG or a CNG diesel Hybrid. I know we experimented with something like that on the heartland flyer, never heard how that turned out.

[Just the facts]

I don't think there is any way we will even see CNG on passenger trains. Union Pacific is testing CNG on freight trains but the reality is - CNG can go boom in a crash and diesel doesn't.

[warreng88]

n/m

[CaptDave]

It would be cool it we could get something like this and run it on LNG or a CNG diesel Hybrid. I know we experimented with something like that on the heartland flyer, never heard how that turned out.

The Heartland Flyer experiment was a biodiesel blend (80/20).

Amtrak trials first cow-powered train | Environment | theguardian.com

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/3/444/AT...20released.pdf

[Just the facts]

For the love of Pete - I have to stop reading stuff like this. Having to listen to people this uniformed is one reason I got out of City Planning.

[Steve]

For the love of Pete - I have to stop reading stuff like this. Having to listen to people this uniformed is one reason I got out of City Planning.

[PhiAlpha]

I don't think there is any way we will even see CNG on passenger trains. Union Pacific is testing CNG on freight trains but the reality is - CNG can go boom in a crash and diesel doesn't.

I own a CNG vehicle. There are a lot of misconceptions about CNG tank volatility. However, even using the theory of extremely explosive tanks, Trains would be a much safer use for LNG or CNG then personal vehicles, buses and trucks due to a multitude of factors including, but not limited to, far fewer trains on the rails then vehicles on the road, far fewer routes for trains to take then vehicles, and of course, as a result of both of those factors, there are far fewer train wrecks then vehicle collisions. None of that even mentions the fact that train cargo consists of much more volatile fuels and chemicals in larger quantities than CNG, but you don't see them shying away from transporting oil, gasoline, propane, and other chemical compounds all of which are under pressure (or at least in sealed containers) and will make a much bigger boom followed by a much, much larger and more difficult to control fire then CNG ever would (after a tank is punctured, Natural gas dissipates, it doesn't pool and create a fire hazard). All you need for proof of that is the massive oil cargo train explosion in Canada a few months ago; a few CNG tanks popping is nothing compared to the damage that caused.

Not going to turn it into a CNG/LNG vs Diesel thread, this is just my two cents based on a lot of research and experience before and after making the leap myself. CNG and LNG are much safer then a lot of the cargo that trains are already halling.

[PhiAlpha]

The Heartland Flyer experiment was a biodiesel blend (80/20).

Amtrak trials first cow-powered train | Environment | theguardian.com

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/3/444/AT...20released.pdf

My bad, thanks. As much CNG talk as there is around here, it's easy to get my alternative fuels mixed up.

[OKVision4U]

Yes, let's just use electricity only and keep the operating cost much lower.

[venture]

Yes, let's just use electricity only and keep the operating cost much lower.

What fuel in this state do you think is used to generate the vast majority of electricity? It sure isn't wind.

[OKVision4U]

What fuel in this state do you think is used to generate the vast majority of electricity? It sure isn't wind.

I just heard on the radio that OG&E is using COAL to source their electric power.

[OKCisOK4me]

I just heard on the radio that OG&E is using COAL to source their electric power.

Yes you are correct. OGE gets coal from the Powder River Basin in Wyoming to a majority of their plants.

[ou48A]

I own a CNG vehicle. There are a lot of misconceptions about CNG tank volatility. However, even using the theory of extremely explosive tanks, Trains would be a much safer use for LNG or CNG then personal vehicles, buses and trucks due to a multitude of factors including, but not limited to, far fewer trains on the rails then vehicles on the road, far fewer routes for trains to take then vehicles, and of course, as a result of both of those factors, there are far fewer train wrecks then vehicle collisions. None of that even mentions the fact that train cargo consists of much more volatile fuels and chemicals in larger quantities than CNG, but you don't see them shying away from transporting oil, gasoline, propane, and other chemical compounds all of which are under pressure (or at least in sealed containers) and will make a much bigger boom followed by a much, much larger and more difficult to control fire then CNG ever would (after a tank is punctured, Natural gas dissipates, it doesn't pool and create a fire hazard). All you need for proof of that is the massive oil cargo train explosion in Canada a few months ago; a few CNG tanks popping is nothing compared to the damage that caused.

Not going to turn it into a CNG/LNG vs Diesel thread, this is just my two cents based on a lot of research and experience before and after making the leap myself. CNG and LNG are much safer then a lot of the cargo that trains are already halling.

This^ is 100% correct

[OKVision4U]

This^ is 100% correct

Do any of you know what a BLEVE is ? .... it ain't good. And you don't want this to happen when rolling into your neighbor hood.

[PhiAlpha]

Yes you are correct. OGE gets coal from the Powder River Basin in Wyoming to a majority of their plants.

That may be true of OGE but according to the EIA, Oklahoma as a whole generates more of it's electricity using natural gas.

[OKVision4U]

That may be true of OGE but according to the EIA, Oklahoma as a whole generates more of it's electricity using natural gas.

... I'm all for Natural GAs partners here in Oklahoma, but we a Light Rail System, 100% is the way to go for the lowest unit cost per mile (operating cost).

[ou48A]

Do any of you know what a BLEVE is ? .... it ain't good. And you don't want this to happen when rolling into your neighbor hood.

NG naturally dissipates into the atmosphere on its own.... I have personally seen this thousands of times and where it involved industrial volumes, sometimes in very large amounts.

The items carried on a train can be even more dangerous because in an accident they sometimes won't dissipate and they sometimes become mixed with other items in a toxic brew. Processed NG is not nearly as toxic as many train cargo's that pass though the OKC metro.

Pipelines are the safest form of transportation for most large scale liquids / gas cargoes but pipeline development is often hindered by a less than cooperative politicians on the left. This drives up cost of products and harms job development.
It also increases the risk to people.

[ou48A]

That may be true of OGE but according to the EIA, Oklahoma as a whole generates more of it's electricity using natural gas.

It would be interesting to see a break down on generating cost per KW on each fuel.

[venture]

To get back on track a bit...pun intended.

Does anyone know what the operating costs are for the Stadler GTW DMUs used by our friends down in Texas? Denton paid about $7 million for each unit which isn't bad since they can hold 200 pax.

Just wanting to play with some loose numbers. My "Red Line" which would operating Noble > Norman > Moore > Crossroads > Downtown and reverse comes in at around 24.5 miles which would typically take about 1 hour 5 minutes each direction based on normal diesel train speeds. Would be interested to see what a ballpark figured would be to run the trains. I believe these DMUs are also one of the few that are approved by the FRA to run on freight lines which would be central to getting commuter rail up and going here before the next ice age.

[Just the facts]

CNG and LNG are much safer then a lot of the cargo that trains are already halling.

Passenger trains haul people. While a person can be dangerous - they won't explode in a crash. They are already testing CNG on freight trains. It is one thing to crash and blow up a box-car full of DVD players, it is another thing to crash and blow up 200 people going to work. The destructive force of a train crash is orders of magnitude larger than a car crash. I'm not saying a CNG locomotive would be the Ford Pinto of the railroad world but safety requirements for freight trains aren't even in the same ballpark as safety requirements for passenger trains and the operating cost savings for a CNG fueled passenger train probably isn't worth the cost of maintaining a CNG refueling station. Union Pacific says they use something like 1.6 billion gallons of diesel fuel so if they just save a few cents per gallon it adds up for them. A commuter rail system won't use 0.01% of that.

Anyhow, I just wanted to add some context to my previous post and don't want to turn this into a diesel-cng debate either so that will be my last comment on it. . I'll give someone else the final word

[CaptDave]

To get back on track a bit...pun intended.

Does anyone know what the operating costs are for the Stadler GTW DMUs used by our friends down in Texas? Denton paid about $7 million for each unit which isn't bad since they can hold 200 pax.

Just wanting to play with some loose numbers. My "Red Line" which would operating Noble > Norman > Moore > Crossroads > Downtown and reverse comes in at around 24.5 miles which would typically take about 1 hour 5 minutes each direction based on normal diesel train speeds. Would be interested to see what a ballpark figured would be to run the trains. I believe these DMUs are also one of the few that are approved by the FRA to run on freight lines which would be central to getting commuter rail up and going here before the next ice age.

You are correct - Denton/Stadler received a FRA waiver that permits the operation of the DMU on rail shared with freight operations. I think the DMU would be an excellent vehicle for commuter operations. DCTA leased RDC's from TRE while waiting for delivery of their Stadler units - might be an option worth exploring here.

DCTA_Alternative_Design_Approval_by_FRA.pdf

[venture]

Something similar to what Norman-OKC would be like...granted OKC is much stronger than Detroit, but the Ann Arbor to Detroit commuter rail is ready to go...

Full details on the project - including financials: SEMCOG

[ljbab728]

That is much further than Norman to OKC but, if you figure Norman to Edmond, it's similar.

[venture]

That is much further than Norman to OKC but, if you figure Norman to Edmond, it's similar.

The distance is...Norman-OKC by rail is about 20 miles. I was more pointing out a community similar in size, a college town, into an urban core.

[ljbab728]

The distance is...Norman-OKC by rail is about 20 miles. I was more pointing out a community similar in size, a college town, into an urban core.

True, but there are several more destination areas between Ann Arbor and Detroit than there are between Norman and OKC.