High Density Living: Norman Edition

[HangryHippo]

What is the latest with this development? Is it on hold pending development of a Campus Corner master plan with input from OU?

Yes. I read in the Transcript that the developer agreed to pull his request until the plan with OU's input was created. God only knows when that will be though.

[kevinpate]

Yes. I read in the Transcript that the developer agreed to pull his request until the plan with OU's input was created. God only knows when that will be though.

Three weeks after they figure out how to restore their Pride perhaps?

[venture]

Since the discussion should be here, I'm going to reply to the off topic posts form the Lindsey thread...

Several 3 story apt complexes now. This area has a great deal of walk-ablility to events / campus / and easy access to Hwy 9 for commuters.

For someone wanting to go out to dinner and such, it is still a pretty long walk unless you are taking a bike. Just because someone can walk to a place, doesn't make it "walkable".

..Yes, very serious. Please look at the SW corner of Chatauqua & Imhoff ( old car wash & for sale ). Yes, those buildings on the North of that corner is 3 story apt. Buildings to the South are apt too. It works very well. The Mixed use Tower would work w/ Residential & Retail below. Thank you for the map, that helps.

A mixed use tower in that area would be a waste when you could put it closer to downtown or campus and be able to draw off of the other amenities that are already available.

I still don't believe you're being serious.

Just because there's a couple of student developments does not make this "high density". Besides a 7/11 gas station the nearest thing to walk to that is commercial/entertainment is Campus Corner, which is 1.5 miles away. I've lived in Traditions for a summer and walked ... once ... to Main Street for a night out. It was a nightmare and I'd never do it again, especially in Oklahoma summer heat.

You and I must have very different ideas of what "high density" development means....

Exactly. A mile may not seem long running from one concourse to another in Atlanta, but going to dinner or to the store is.

I said place a High End Apt / Condo Tower on that location, ...with the lower floors having a Starbucks / Bookstore / Restaurant / etc. and this will Sell. This location becomes (The draw). It's location is best for Students / 20 - 30 Single group / and urbanist. The condos would be perfect. Apts would be THE only tower apt available in Norman. Don't get too confused w/ luster of campus corner. People don't want to live next door to the Night Life, and remember this. When Dad's are paying the bills for the daughters, the don't want them next the bars. lol.

People don't want to live next door to night life? Funny considering there are several $300-400K+ homes in the Campus Corner area now.

I believe this has been stated before on another thread...but there is SO much parking available near campus corner. There is plenty of street parking in the surrounding neighborhoods, huge lots of parking on the west side of University...parking should be campus corner's last worry.

Exactly. Though I think it would be smart to look at building high density buildings with integrated parking in the structure's foot print as well.

[venture]

Guru... do you even got out at all? ....Maybe you should get out more and look around at the other college towns. Austin ? They have several like this. That means ( Multi Million Dollar ) investments have been made previously, for the exact same purpose..... So, the idea in not laughable, just the first in the market place. That makes it even better ( financial ) move.

guru, ...don't even talk about $$$ w/ me.

Austin is larger than Norman, why is this even being brought in? Norman is closer to Ann Arbor than Austin. Hell OKC has trouble holding a candle to Austin in some aspects.

[OKVision4U]

You are correct. Austin is way ahead of Norman, but the needs around a DI school are still the same. They have similar needs & they have similar demographics. ( from a developers / financial POV ). Students / Urbanist / Hip crowd.

Thus they have the same needs for housing. And yes, a 8 - 10 story condo mixed retail will work.

[OKVision4U]

Venture, great input. I did say that this would include a couple of restaurants / deli. One thing that is already happeing in south Norman in the apartment living segment, they live further out and w/o a dinner location in close proximity. They are full because of the demand in the area, and the access to hwy 9.

If a mixed use residential tower was in that location, if would provide that type of amenities that lack that area. ie. starbucks / deli / book store / high end feel.

They are already making that walk, now. One key that makes this idea so appealing is the commuters. The urbanist / young marrieds that don't want a yard, would purchase the condos just for this & the great access to hwy 9 and then to I-35.

Another key, is safety. The Tower provides locked gates w/ all units secured by limiting access to others. This is a huge key for 50% of the demographics, ...women. Their safety is a priority.

[venture]

While the idea has merit, you are thinking too short term for such a large investment. Initial investments are going to need existing traffic and demand to make it work. More urban developments on 12th and Lindsey, pretty close to campus on the east side, have been filling up on the residential size but retail/food has been very slow to fill in. So you can't expect businesses to just flock in there because of a single concentrated housing development. You also need to have existing foot traffic and demand to make it work.

This is why you see the development proposed on Boyd. You have a lot of existing foot traffic with campus and campus corner. People are actually right on the core of campus and aren't having to walk a mile north to get to it.

You mention commuters. Eventually we will see commuter rail from Norman to Downtown connecting to a larger network. As Kerry has pointed out many times, we really want to avoid Park'n'Rides as much as we can, but it isn't avoidable here in my opinion. However, the Norman station for such a development is likely going to be either in Downtown Norman or near campus. The Boyd Street area probably isn't a bad location for it. If you combine it with the high density development plan, you are setting that area up for an explosion of demand. Combine it with the Legacy Trail bike path starting just north on Duffy...you start to bring in other features that can be combined to enrich an area.

As soon as the first large development is done, you start creating a neighborhood/district that begins to rapidly transform into a true walkable/urban development. You also start to link Downtown and Campus. Implement a highly reliable transit system with buses throughout that area down to the research park and you start creating a district that become attractive to more businesses. This means more money works in to where redevelopment of the area can take place. We can look at streets getting modernized with dedicated bike lanes, small single lane roundabouts, and wide sidewalks. OU has said they would put in a roundabout at Lindsey and Jenkins if needed. I would think you look at Jenkins and do roundabouts the entire way to Highway 9 and you create a continuous traffic flow all the way for auto commuters.

The key to all of this is building density. Focusing up in Campus Corner and eventually grown north to Downtown is the best way to tap into it.

[soonerguru]

While the idea has merit, you are thinking too short term for such a large investment. Initial investments are going to need existing traffic and demand to make it work. More urban developments on 12th and Lindsey, pretty close to campus on the east side, have been filling up on the residential size but retail/food has been very slow to fill in. So you can't expect businesses to just flock in there because of a single concentrated housing development. You also need to have existing foot traffic and demand to make it work.

This is why you see the development proposed on Boyd. You have a lot of existing foot traffic with campus and campus corner. People are actually right on the core of campus and aren't having to walk a mile north to get to it.

You mention commuters. Eventually we will see commuter rail from Norman to Downtown connecting to a larger network. As Kerry has pointed out many times, we really want to avoid Park'n'Rides as much as we can, but it isn't avoidable here in my opinion. However, the Norman station for such a development is likely going to be either in Downtown Norman or near campus. The Boyd Street area probably isn't a bad location for it. If you combine it with the high density development plan, you are setting that area up for an explosion of demand. Combine it with the Legacy Trail bike path starting just north on Duffy...you start to bring in other features that can be combined to enrich an area.

As soon as the first large development is done, you start creating a neighborhood/district that begins to rapidly transform into a true walkable/urban development. You also start to link Downtown and Campus. Implement a highly reliable transit system with buses throughout that area down to the research park and you start creating a district that become attractive to more businesses. This means more money works in to where redevelopment of the area can take place. We can look at streets getting modernized with dedicated bike lanes, small single lane roundabouts, and wide sidewalks. OU has said they would put in a roundabout at Lindsey and Jenkins if needed. I would think you look at Jenkins and do roundabouts the entire way to Highway 9 and you create a continuous traffic flow all the way for auto commuters.

The key to all of this is building density. Focusing up in Campus Corner and eventually grown north to Downtown is the best way to tap into it.

Great post. For some reason (reading comprehension?) OKVision has confused me with someone who doesn't want great, ambitious things for Norman. Perhaps because he's new he doesn't have a sense of my posting history.

I would love to see high-rise residential for Norman (at least 12-20 stories). But it needs to be in the right area of town to maximize urban density, as you have explained so well.

[OKVision4U]

While the idea has merit, you are thinking too short term for such a large investment. Initial investments are going to need existing traffic and demand to make it work. More urban developments on 12th and Lindsey, pretty close to campus on the east side, have been filling up on the residential size but retail/food has been very slow to fill in. So you can't expect businesses to just flock in there because of a single concentrated housing development. You also need to have existing foot traffic and demand to make it work.

This is why you see the development proposed on Boyd. You have a lot of existing foot traffic with campus and campus corner. People are actually right on the core of campus and aren't having to walk a mile north to get to it.

You mention commuters. Eventually we will see commuter rail from Norman to Downtown connecting to a larger network. As Kerry has pointed out many times, we really want to avoid Park'n'Rides as much as we can, but it isn't avoidable here in my opinion. However, the Norman station for such a development is likely going to be either in Downtown Norman or near campus. The Boyd Street area probably isn't a bad location for it. If you combine it with the high density development plan, you are setting that area up for an explosion of demand. Combine it with the Legacy Trail bike path starting just north on Duffy...you start to bring in other features that can be combined to enrich an area.

As soon as the first large development is done, you start creating a neighborhood/district that begins to rapidly transform into a true walkable/urban development. You also start to link Downtown and Campus. Implement a highly reliable transit system with buses throughout that area down to the research park and you start creating a district that become attractive to more businesses. This means more money works in to where redevelopment of the area can take place. We can look at streets getting modernized with dedicated bike lanes, small single lane roundabouts, and wide sidewalks. OU has said they would put in a roundabout at Lindsey and Jenkins if needed. I would think you look at Jenkins and do roundabouts the entire way to Highway 9 and you create a continuous traffic flow all the way for auto commuters.

The key to all of this is building density. Focusing up in Campus Corner and eventually grown north to Downtown is the best way to tap into it.

I can see several points that you stated are keys to helping insure the success of a large / substantial investment.

If the development that I was recommending was the 3rd or 4th tower to be constructed, then I certainly would want more "volume of foot-traffic" and more infrastructure in place. I can see that campus corner area could support a large residential tower now. I still believe that the demand on the south end of Norman would pull from all the other existing apartment customer-base and would be The Hot Spot.

I do see that the condo "buyer" vs. campus apartment lease would be more inclined to be where they have quick access to Hwy 9 - I-35. From Campus Corner it puts another 10-15 min on your commute, thus the 20 - 30 singles / Young Marrieds would be less likely to purchase on Campus Corner. If I were to build this High End Residential Condo / Apt , mixed retail, it would be Pre-Sold before the yellow ribbon was cut. IMO.

[venture]

I can see several points that you stated are keys to helping insure the success of a large / substantial investment.

If the development that I was recommending was the 3rd or 4th tower to be constructed, then I certainly would want more "volume of foot-traffic" and more infrastructure in place. I can see that campus corner area could support a large residential tower now. I still believe that the demand on the south end of Norman would pull from all the other existing apartment customer-base and would be The Hot Spot.

I do see that the condo "buyer" vs. campus apartment lease would be more inclined to be where they have quick access to Hwy 9 - I-35. From Campus Corner it puts another 10-15 min on your commute, thus the 20 - 30 singles / Young Marrieds would be less likely to purchase on Campus Corner. If I were to build this High End Residential Condo / Apt , mixed retail, it would be Pre-Sold before the yellow ribbon was cut. IMO.

Your reasoning doesn't make sense. High density development would be more prosperous where there is existing density or at least the foundation for more density. You are referring to the existing apartments on the south end to help with your development, but that doesn't make sense. For your project to go forward, you are going to have to remove at least one of those complexes to have room for yours. Whereas that won't be an issue near CC. Let's not forget, CC is already a hot spot - why try to make another right now?

10-15 minutes to get down Jenkins or whatever to extend a commute? Hardly. Sure estimates can fluctuate but if you map it out, the commute time would be essentially the same - no more than a 4 minute difference, which is nothing. Young marrieds with kids are likely going to pick a more traditional neighborhood over any high density development - so they don't need to get in this discussion. The 20-30 singles/couples are going to probably follow the typical trend of sticking to an urban setting if possible. Heck if people are buying houses worth $400-500K right next to Campus Corner, that must not be a huge turn off.

I really don't see any logic how a solitary high density development will work south away from various amenities, but it won't work where there is some level of density and demand already.

[venture]

One is really just vertical sprawl and the other is fitting into a cohesive neighborhood.

The former is simply for storing people, commuters namely. The later is for giving the 1st place in a holistic lifestyle, where their 2nd Place and 3rd Place(s) are nearby. Third place - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If Norman wants to just be a bedroom community of commuters, then they should build high density outside the core and nearest to the interstates.

If Norman wants to attract professionals of all ages to live, work, eat, and recreate all within Norman, then they need to develop the core as much as possible. As many projects as possible to raise rates will drive capital into the city and encourage business growth. Growth that will rely on a labor force that the school is currently offering and new residents will provide.

That's my $.02.

Completely agree. Building these 6-storyish developments in the Campus Corner to Downtown section of the city you really nail the live, eat, and recreate portion of the equation. Work is something that needs some help. Though with efficient bus service (perhaps maybe street cars one day) you start to connect in the research park and those businesses on south campus and also downtown. Eventually the system can be expected to the UNP business developments and the others built along the "technology corridor" on Highway 9. Add in a commuter rail line to downtown OKC (that connects to a larger network) and you have a very favorable and attractive district to live in.

Additional retail/food space on the first level of any developments also get to cash in on the large student population and not to mention the huge boost on game days (football and basketball to some extent). We already have documented cases of people getting an apartment/condo in or near downtown OKC to get the experience of an urban lifestyle - even while still owning their home in the burbs. Could definitely see some doing the same in Norman.

[Just the facts]

That's my $.02.

Factor in currency exchange rates and your 2 cents is worth $1.75 in some other people's ideas.

[OKVision4U]

Completely agree. Building these 6-storyish developments in the Campus Corner to Downtown section of the city you really nail the live, eat, and recreate portion of the equation. Work is something that needs some help. Though with efficient bus service (perhaps maybe street cars one day) you start to connect in the research park and those businesses on south campus and also downtown. Eventually the system can be expected to the UNP business developments and the others built along the "technology corridor" on Highway 9. Add in a commuter rail line to downtown OKC (that connects to a larger network) and you have a very favorable and attractive district to live in.

Additional retail/food space on the first level of any developments also get to cash in on the large student population and not to mention the huge boost on game days (football and basketball to some extent). We already have documented cases of people getting an apartment/condo in or near downtown OKC to get the experience of an urban lifestyle - even while still owning their home in the burbs. Could definitely see some doing the same in Norman.

Things are certainly changing for the better in central okla for sure. When the regional light rail comes to Norman, you will see even more reason for my proximity to Hwy 9 for my 10-12 story High End Condo / Apt Tower. I'm ok with not having as much "foot traffic" w/ my development. All things equal, my location becomes the better choice. High Visibility will continue to feed the demand for this location. People want what they see. If the core of Norman was prominent, then the core would be a great first choice. But Norman's core is moderate at best. It will take a great deal of time & money to get the core of Norman to equal the demand of the university. ( People would rather be closer to campus, than downtown Norman ).

Most 20-30 Singles / Urban Marrieds, would want this location over campus corner. Once graduation happens, the campus is not where you want to live. This is why this location provides the "best of both" worlds. Close to campus, but not on campus. I will give them Bikes w/ each condo purchase. ( lol.). Covered parking w/ safe rooms.

[OKVision4U]

Trendy Condo Tower in Norman... Would anyone want to live here? ...Would this be fun?

100 DAVENPORT | YORKVILLE CONDOS | THE FLORIAN CONDOS | 100 DAVENPORT CONDOMINIUMS

[OKVision4U]

Trendy Condo Tower in Norman... Would anyone want to live here? ...Would this be fun?

100 DAVENPORT | YORKVILLE CONDOS | THE FLORIAN CONDOS | 100 DAVENPORT CONDOMINIUMS

...just giving an example of what type of Trendy I am speaking of.

[venture]

Things are certainly changing for the better in central okla for sure. When the regional light rail comes to Norman, you will see even more reason for my proximity to Hwy 9 for my 10-12 story High End Condo / Apt Tower. I'm ok with not having as much "foot traffic" w/ my development. All things equal, my location becomes the better choice. High Visibility will continue to feed the demand for this location. People want what they see. If the core of Norman was prominent, then the core would be a great first choice. But Norman's core is moderate at best. It will take a great deal of time & money to get the core of Norman to equal the demand of the university. ( People would rather be closer to campus, than downtown Norman ).

Most 20-30 Singles / Urban Marrieds, would want this location over campus corner. Once graduation happens, the campus is not where you want to live. This is why this location provides the "best of both" worlds. Close to campus, but not on campus. I will give them Bikes w/ each condo purchase. ( lol.). Covered parking w/ safe rooms.

Okay seriously, you aren't making any sense. With commuter rail (not light rail) how is a location 2-4 miles from the station going to be even better than one that could very well be right next door or less a mile bike ride/walk? Do you even have any experience being in a high density area or experiencing any large scale mass transit? Hell...even SimCity would teach you better with planning. LOL

Your location is even less desirable and has less features around it than the one that is ACTUALLY planned. Sure it might be good for some cities to throw towers every where, but at some point you destroy any chance of getting to critical mass and really extracting the benefits of high density living. Why would you even claim people would choose your location over Campus Corner when you have people wanting to get into Downtown OKC because things are developing that are in walking distances. If you just want a tower for commuters...go pick a field out in the middle of Tuttle or something.

Trendy Condo Tower in Norman... Would anyone want to live here? ...Would this be fun?

100 DAVENPORT | YORKVILLE CONDOS | THE FLORIAN CONDOS | 100 DAVENPORT CONDOMINIUMS

So that's your example. NOW...did you even bother looking at the neighborhood it is in? It is located in an area with other high density developments and towers. Not off away from a high traffic area next to some apartment complexes. What you are suggesting is the equivalent of putting the Devon Tower at I-240/I-40 out in far east OKC. You aren't even talking about this rationally.

Is there demand for a high density multi-use tower in Norman right now? I don't think so. Not yet anyway. We need more of these 4-6 story developments to go in and start building up the density and help reach the point where some larger makes sense. For now the only high rise residential complexes in Norman will remain the dorm towers.

[warreng88]

Trendy Condo Tower in Norman... Would anyone want to live here? ...Would this be fun?

100 DAVENPORT | YORKVILLE CONDOS | THE FLORIAN CONDOS | 100 DAVENPORT CONDOMINIUMS

Put that on campus corner and I'm in. Put that on the corner (any corner) of Chautauqua and Imhoff and I'm out.

[OKVision4U]

Okay seriously, you aren't making any sense. With commuter rail (not light rail) how is a location 2-4 miles from the station going to be even better than one that could very well be right next door or less a mile bike ride/walk? Do you even have any experience being in a high density area or experiencing any large scale mass transit? Hell...even SimCity would teach you better with planning. LOL

Your location is even less desirable and has less features around it than the one that is ACTUALLY planned. Sure it might be good for some cities to throw towers every where, but at some point you destroy any chance of getting to critical mass and really extracting the benefits of high density living. Why would you even claim people would choose your location over Campus Corner when you have people wanting to get into Downtown OKC because things are developing that are in walking distances. If you just want a tower for commuters...go pick a field out in the middle of Tuttle or something.



So that's your example. NOW...did you even bother looking at the neighborhood it is in? It is located in an area with other high density developments and towers. Not off away from a high traffic area next to some apartment complexes. What you are suggesting is the equivalent of putting the Devon Tower at I-240/I-40 out in far east OKC. You aren't even talking about this rationally.

Is there demand for a high density multi-use tower in Norman right now? I don't think so. Not yet anyway. We need more of these 4-6 story developments to go in and start building up the density and help reach the point where some larger makes sense. For now the only high rise residential complexes in Norman will remain the dorm towers.

Venture, you know most all of the new Large Buildings are South of the oval? ...NWS / Tech Row. / LNC / ...this is not just "thrown" out there. This Trendy Tower I am speaking of has ALL the amenities you want. I'm not Planning for a City, I'm developing a property for Sell. A world of difference. I'm not saying that the 4-6 story units won't be successful in the campus area or the core of Norman, but this Trendy High End Tower would sell. $285 K p/ unit. With a view of all the ball fields / River / Stadium.... It willl be in high demand.

[warreng88]

Let's take the idea of retail, restaurant, etc out of the equation. Vision, where in Norman would be the best place to put a 15 story residential tower with the only amenities being on site parking?

[BG918]

I would say in close proximity to Canpus Corner on the north and east side of OU. That is where densities are already higher and where existing housing could demolished to increase density (unlike neighborhoods to the northwest/west). This also goes along with the vision that higher density should be near the tracks due to the eventual rail line to OKC, and synergies between downtown, Campus Corner and OU.

[venture]

Venture, you know most all of the new Large Buildings are South of the oval? ...NWS / Tech Row. / LNC / ...this is not just "thrown" out there. This Trendy Tower I am speaking of has ALL the amenities you want. I'm not Planning for a City, I'm developing a property for Sell. A world of difference. I'm not saying that the 4-6 story units won't be successful in the campus area or the core of Norman, but this Trendy High End Tower would sell. $285 K p/ unit. With a view of all the ball fields / River / Stadium.... It willl be in high demand.

How can you possibly have ALL the amenities someone shopping for an urban/high density environment in one development? You can't. Are you actually considering LNC a "new" large building? Wow. Campus Corner you have a developer who has interest in build a 6-story urban high density project. Right across the street from the TALLEST building in Norman (since size of buildings seems to matter to you for some reason) and a short walk from Memorial Stadium. Not to mention you have all the existing restaurants and shops in CC that someone would be able to walk to. On top of that, you have the potential to be right next to a commuter rail station. You can essentially live in the development WITHOUT a car. Your project would still require that and have NOTHING close to the CC offerings.

Here is an image of what the same developer proposed in Stillwater:



These urban developments are what is in demand right now. This is why you see Deep Deuce filling so fast. Downtown OKC has significantly higher density than Norman, but you don't see people tripping over each other to build towers - do you? Use common sense.

[OKVision4U]

How can you possibly have ALL the amenities someone shopping for an urban/high density environment in one development? You can't. Are you actually considering LNC a "new" large building? Wow. Campus Corner you have a developer who has interest in build a 6-story urban high density project. Right across the street from the TALLEST building in Norman (since size of buildings seems to matter to you for some reason) and a short walk from Memorial Stadium. Not to mention you have all the existing restaurants and shops in CC that someone would be able to walk to. On top of that, you have the potential to be right next to a commuter rail station. You can essentially live in the development WITHOUT a car. Your project would still require that and have NOTHING close to the CC offerings.

Here is an image of what the same developer proposed in Stillwater:



These urban developments are what is in demand right now. This is why you see Deep Deuce filling so fast. Downtown OKC has significantly higher density than Norman, but you don't see people tripping over each other to build towers - do you? Use common sense.

...the comment about large buildings was a response to your "throw a tower out in the middle of nowwhere". ...Your are correct, LNC is not that new, so i will mention that my Tower will be 2 blocks from the Largest Museum in Norman, The Sam Noble Museum of Natural History. I did overlook that one. lol.

Yes, the 4-6 developments are hot in Deep Duece. A big need. What makes my offer of a large tower is the 30,000 customers ( each year ) that attend the Univ. of Oklahoma. This is the Dynamic that would "feed" my Trendy Condo / Apt. Tower.

[OKVision4U]

Put that on campus corner and I'm in. Put that on the corner (any corner) of Chautauqua and Imhoff and I'm out.

Hey look, my first customer. Warreng likes it too..

[OKVision4U]

Let's take the idea of retail, restaurant, etc out of the equation. Vision, where in Norman would be the best place to put a 15 story residential tower with the only amenities being on site parking?

Warreng, in all reality I would not spend less money, just to save the cost. The amenties are what helps "Seal the Deal" for my Tower. It's like taking your own environment w/ you. If my mixed use tower has 3 floors dedicated to retail / rest / book store / Starbucks, then my develompent becomes the anchor.

[warreng88]

Hey look, my first customer. Warreng likes it too..

But did you notice that I said I would NOT live in that if you were to put it where you originally proposed? You know why? There is nothing else down there. Then I am just some d-bag living in condo next to Lloyd Noble and the water treatment plant. I bet you could put just about any building, whether it be a six story in-fill (like venture is talking about) or a 15 story condo/apartment near Campus Corner and it would sell because of the already existing activities available.