Friends for a Better Boulevard

[dmoor82]

....Guys, I definately do not want the "strip & wait" of the 70' - 92' program. I am 100% for the beautiful BLVD you have decribed ( Project 180 is a GREAT success!! ).

, but I do know this... The key factor for success in the MAPS 1 program was the "seamless implimentation of the projects". We need to be very cautious of "pushing things back to much". The more we push back in the front of this Program, the longer it takes for the other benefits of "economic development" to show up. That is my primary point.

Thunder nice to have you back! Lol

[Plutonic Panda]

Can't even answer a simple question. How about this, I'm 35. See how easy that was (crickets--with regard to age)...

Wow, I thought you were in your mid 20s, what is your secret lol ;P

[Steve]

"seamless implementation"? With MAPS 1? Um, no, it was not seamless. Time to brush up on some history. Actually, the schedule for MAPS 1 was pushed back repeatedly as it was revised again and again - often to its benefit. Let's take this revisionist version of MAPS history and show what would have happened (I was there):
- The ballpark is where Bass Pro sits.
- Parking, and no development in Lower Bricktown
- A canal that flows south of Reno Avenue with no buildings on either side.
OR
- A canal that had three segments so that the water taxis would not have been feasible
- A library where Devon Energy Center now stands
- Dams along the river with no locks for boats to pass through
- A river with far less trails and landscaping because the city would have gone too quickly to have gotten the federal enhancement grants

[OKVision4U]

"seamless implementation"? With MAPS 1? Um, no, it was not seamless. Time to brush up on some history. Actually, the schedule for MAPS 1 was pushed back repeatedly as it was revised again and again - often to its benefit. Let's take this revisionist version of MAPS history and show what would have happened (I was there):
- The ballpark is where Bass Pro sits.
- Parking, and no development in Lower Bricktown
- A canal that flows south of Reno Avenue with no buildings on either side.
OR
- A canal that had three segments so that the water taxis would not have been feasible
- A library where Devon Energy Center now stands
- Dams along the river with no locks for boats to pass through
- A river with far less trails and landscaping because the city would have gone too quickly to have gotten the federal enhancement grants

... Like I said, Seamless. There has not been a large project in the history of Oklahoma, that was "100 % perfect". That is the Nature of projects.

The entire MAPS 1 was : Large projects making it through the design process / contracting process / construction / completion phase(s) and all with a great since of accomplishment & pride for OKC Metro.

....yeah, I like my word better.... Seamless.

[OKVision4U]

What exactly are your opinions other then we have to build "something great" as fast as possible?

OK, ...here is an example ( in short w/o designs) of concepts:

First, Thank you to the Friends for a Better Blvd. YOU, GET IT! This is a MUST for OKC. This access point ( Blvd ) is the first taste of what the "vision" of any / all future development South of Reno will reflect. This BLVD MUST have the feel of ( Amazing in Environment ). All developers will < digest > the level of detail / design / vision of what our CORE TO SHORE will become through this Blvd. It is access, it is style, it is vision. This is NOT the time to go "cheap". This the time to SHOW OUR BEST. Project 180 hits the nail on the Head, and the BLVD should be / must be even higher in excellence.NOW, these developers can not make this acccessment until this "street" is in. This is the LINK ( KEY ) to their decisions. This is the "first domino" in this area of development and that is what will help move the "outside" investment / development community into decision mode. ( this is the build it and they will come senario ).

This decision is (Way above ODOT)...and the entire STATE is looking for our BEST.

Guys, I have always wanted a MUCH better BLVD, as you will find that I never want "CHEAP".

[Steve]

OK. But the phrase used was "seamless implementation."
Webster definition of "seamless": moving from one thing to another easily and without any interruptions or problems.
That's the exact opposite of what happened with implementation of MAPS 1. The implementation of MAPS 1 was not something that went from one item to the next easily. There were delays. There were revisions. There were interruptions. The city did NOT rush forward ... it was very deliberate and slow, sometimes frustratingly so.

[warreng88]

Wow

Well, you left Larry speachless. You win...

[OKVision4U]

OK. But the phrase used was "seamless implementation."
Webster definition of "seamless": moving from one thing to another easily and without any interruptions or problems.
That's the exact opposite of what happened with implementation of MAPS 1. The implementation of MAPS 1 was not something that went from one item to the next easily. There were delays. There were revisions. There were interruptions. The city did NOT rush forward ... it was very deliberate and slow, sometimes frustratingly so.

Steve, it's kinda like making sausage. You may not want to look at "How it is really made", but it tastes good in the gumbo. Again, no project is perfect from "concept to final".

[OKCisOK4me]

I don't think "ageless" Vision knows who Steve is.

[Steve]

Ow.....head hurts.

[David]

Today I learned that seamless means the exact opposite of seamless. Oh, the internet.

[Plutonic Panda]

[warreng88]

Ow.....head hurts.

Yeah Steve. That's why I put him on ignore. It's hard to reason with someone who says, "Who cares how much it costs? Build it for whatever, doesn't matter where the money (debt) comes from, but build it now and don't do any sort of research."

[OKVision4U]

I don't think "ageless" Vision knows who Steve is.

... Timeless Vision.

...again, do any of you have any ( Ideas ) or just playground banter? Age is not that important, but Maturity is a huge plus in life. So, ...any ideas ( warren / plut /david / okok ) that are a "must have" for the BLVD?

[Plutonic Panda]

Today I learned that seamless means the exact opposite of seamless. Oh, the internet.

Well, the trick is, to seamlessly, make a seamless seam. Do that, and you sir, are in business!

[Steve]

... Timeless Vision.

...again, do any of you have any ( Ideas ) or just playground banter? Age is not that important, but Maturity is a huge plus in life. So, ...any ideas ( warren / plut /david / okok ) that are a "must have" for the BLVD?

Can we please back up? Let's start with your original premise, as I understand it. And if my understanding is wrong, then I apologize in advance. But is your premise that the boulevard needs to be built with no further delays, no further public input, and opened as fast as possible to get development started? Because that's where I am getting very confused on your communication ... as an aside, though, the only reason I am in this thread is I can't stay quiet when people try to rewrite the history of MAPS. The proposal that MAPS 1 implementation was "seamless" is simply not true, and it's a dangerous idea to promote especially when you have a lot of folks in their 20s who were not of age to fully understand what did and did not happen. Learning the wrong lessons from history can create disasters in the future.

[OKVision4U]

Can we please back up? Let's start with your original premise, as I understand it. And if my understanding is wrong, then I apologize in advance. But is your premise that the boulevard needs to be built with no further delays, no further public input, and opened as fast as possible to get development started? Because that's where I am getting very confused on your communication ... as an aside, though, the only reason I am in this thread is I can't stay quiet when people try to rewrite the history of MAPS. The proposal that MAPS 1 implementation was "seamless" is simply not true, and it's a dangerous idea to promote especially when you have a lot of folks in their 20s who were not of age to fully understand what did and did not happen. Learning the wrong lessons from history can create disasters in the future.

MAPS history from most all the OKC residents / state of Oklahoma / and a lot of other US city officials agree that this was a (Tremendous / Great ) success. MAPS 1 was so successful, that other cities use this model to pull their cities into a position of "growth / develoment".

So yes, I will say that 98% of the people in OKC Metro will say it was outstanding / seamless. We voted. We collected. We designed. We implemented. We played a baseball game in Brictown Ballpark, YES, it was a success. ...the other 2% may have a different view because of the location to the situation (behind the closed door where the sausage is made) and they have a jilted or differing opinion. I'm part of the 98% !

Yes, I truly understand the "fog" of projects... That is typical. We can have an expedited project that is of High Design / High Value in a timely manner. This project is a statement of the other portions of the Central Park / Convention / Hotels / High End Retail / Diners etc.... This is the critical path that must be managed & pulled through. Big money waiting.

[OKVision4U]

Yeah Steve. That's why I put him on ignore. It's hard to reason with someone who says, "Who cares how much it costs? Build it for whatever, doesn't matter where the money (debt) comes from, but build it now and don't do any sort of research."

I am part of that group that can look at two vehicle groups ( Yugo / Ford Pinto ) & ( Corvette / Mustang ) and quickly make up my mind. I don't have to wait 90 days / hire a consultant, and then they tell me that the Yugo / Pinto have some issues and that you may want to go w/ the Vette / Mustang. Really ???

Buying something because it is less expensive may be more COSTLY than the price. ...that may have went over a few heads on this board though.

[PhiAlpha]

MAPS history from most all the OKC residents / state of Oklahoma / and a lot of other US city officials agree that this was a (Tremendous / Great ) success. MAPS 1 was so successful, that other cities use this model to pull their cities into a position of "growth / develoment".

So yes, I will say that 98% of the people in OKC Metro will say it was outstanding / seamless. We voted. We collected. We designed. We implemented. We played a baseball game in Brictown Ballpark, YES, it was a success. ...the other 2% may have a different view because of the location to the situation (behind the closed door where the sausage is made) and they have a jilted or differing opinion. I'm part of the 98% !

Yes, I truly understand the "fog" of projects... That is typical. We can have an expedited project that is of High Design / High Value in a timely manner. This project is a statement of the other portions of the Central Park / Convention / Hotels / High End Retail / Diners etc.... This is the critical path that must be managed & pulled through. Big money waiting.

Not really sure what your point is, the MAPS I projects turned out great, but the implementation process was by no means seamless and was very similar to the MAPS III process we are experiencing today (Project changes, debate, revisions, budget shortfalls, etc). Steve, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm one of those in my mid-twenties and have a very blurred memory of what transpired during MAPS I, but do remember some of it and have read a decent amount about the process.
On Edit: I should've read the last page of the thread before posting...

Also, you realize that, in arguing with Steve, you are arguing with the guy that covered MAPS I for the Oklahoman during most of it's implementation, right?

[warreng88]

I am part of that group that can look at two vehicle groups ( Yugo / Ford Pinto ) & ( Corvette / Mustang ) and quickly make up my mind. I don't have to wait 90 days / hire a consultant, and then they tell me that the Yugo / Pinto have some issues and that you may want to go w/ the Vette / Mustang. Really ???

Buying something because it is less expensive may be more COSTLY than the price. ...that may have went over a few heads on this board though.

I am going to go against my better judgement and respond to you directly since this post was directed at me.

I have no problem with people having vision. I have a problem with people not having a plan to carry out that vision.

There are a bunch of moving parts with the Boulevard that neither you or I have control over (i.e. COPTA, ODOT, Mayoral council, etc) and you are just wanting all them to come together and work to make it happen and it is not that simple. Go back and read the first 75 pages of this thread and you will see that there are sources of funding for this particular boulevard where certain things have to happen before it can be implemented. It is the same thing for all of the other projects you are so blindly saying, "MAKE IT HAPPEN NOW!!!!!!!!!!" There is an amount of due diligence that has to be done before these things can be implemented. Or, you can raise billions of dollars yourself and build a park or a convention center yourself, only having to answer to the design committee and that is about it. I can't remember the timing, but Mick Cornett set up a website asking if another MAPS was wanted by the people and 85% said yes. The MAPS 3 proposal was official about six months later and was voted on several months after that. It was over a year from asking if we want something to the actual vote of it. You want everything to be built today with no regards to how it is going to be funded and just going into debt to get it built big and quickly. Very few people on this forum and in real life agree with you.

[SouthsideSooner]

MAPS history from most all the OKC residents / state of Oklahoma / and a lot of other US city officials agree that this was a (Tremendous / Great ) success. MAPS 1 was so successful, that other cities use this model to pull their cities into a position of "growth / develoment".

So yes, I will say that 98% of the people in OKC Metro will say it was outstanding / seamless. We voted. We collected. We designed. We implemented. We played a baseball game in Brictown Ballpark, YES, it was a success. ...the other 2% may have a different view because of the location to the situation (behind the closed door where the sausage is made) and they have a jilted or differing opinion. I'm part of the 98% !

Yes, I truly understand the "fog" of projects... That is typical. We can have an expedited project that is of High Design / High Value in a timely manner. This project is a statement of the other portions of the Central Park / Convention / Hotels / High End Retail / Diners etc.... This is the critical path that must be managed & pulled through. Big money waiting.

I am part of that group that can look at two vehicle groups ( Yugo / Ford Pinto ) & ( Corvette / Mustang ) and quickly make up my mind. I don't have to wait 90 days / hire a consultant, and then they tell me that the Yugo / Pinto have some issues and that you may want to go w/ the Vette / Mustang. Really ???

Buying something because it is less expensive may be more COSTLY than the price. ...that may have went over a few heads on this board though.

Please, buddy... stop while you're behind... I really don't think you quite understand who some of the other posters are and in spite of your obvious good intentions, your posts make you look extremely simple minded and immature...

You really seem to think that you're the smartest guy in the room and continually show a complete lack of respect for other posters here who are extremely knowledgeable and that you could learn a lot from...

Just a friendly word of advise but you should be doing a lot more reading and a lot less typing...

[Bellaboo]

... Timeless Vision.

...again, do any of you have any ( Ideas ) or just playground banter? Age is not that important, but Maturity is a huge plus in life. So, ...any ideas ( warren / plut /david / okok ) that are a "must have" for the BLVD?

Sorry Vision, but you do know what playground banter is......lol

People on this board are not as stupid as you think...

[Tier2City]

Come back, krisb - all is forgiven.

[Steve]

Not really sure what your point is, the MAPS I projects turned out great, but the implementation process was by no means seamless and was very similar to the MAPS III process we are experiencing today (Project changes, debate, revisions, budget shortfalls, etc). Steve, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm one of those in my mid-twenties and have a very blurred memory of what transpired during MAPS I, but do remember some of it and have read a decent amount about the process.
On Edit: I should've read the last page of the thread before posting...

Also, you realize that, in arguing with Steve, you are arguing with the guy that covered MAPS I for the Oklahoman during most of it's implementation, right?

And I also wrote the history book; interviewed more than 100 people, spent seven years going through city/Urban Renewal/chamber archives. Vision, your enthusiasm is to be admired. But I'm not sure you fully understand how all this works.

[OKCisOK4me]

... Timeless Vision.

...again, do any of you have any ( Ideas ) or just playground banter? Age is not that important, but Maturity is a huge plus in life. So, ...any ideas ( warren / plut /david / okok ) that are a "must have" for the BLVD?

Okay...how on earth is maturity even of importance when even you don't know what maturity stands for...unless of course maturity means the same thing as seamless!

The reason behind MAPS 1 being "seamless"...the "seamlessness" that other cities may use the MAPS model to improve their downtowns is the private and public development dollars that OKC has seen due to the popularity of MAPS. That's the "seamless" success of MAPS!

If you were of a certain age in life you'd have respect for others opinions. You wouldn't second guess our posts about you needing to go back and read 75 pages to understand what is happening. You're young. Probably 18 or 19, think the world is your oyster and can't nobody hold you down. Guess what? You got a lot to learn. Be humble...don't be a donkey.