What happened to NW OKC?

[Teo9969]

I hate to say this, but if you hesitate to drive through any part of OKC, you're part of the problem...

[zookeeper]

I hate to say this, but if you hesitate to drive through any part of OKC, you're part of the problem...

I was going to let this go, but what the %^&$$ are you talking about? Jim was saying that he didn't feel completely safe driving through a neighborhood that he once lived in. The fact the "hood" has taken over the area is not the problem? The problem is Jim not feeling safe driving through there? In fact, you think because of that, he's part of the problem? Is this some kind of weird "diversity training" claptrap? Sometimes I think the whole fricking world has gone insane.

[bluedogok]

I can understand what he is saying but for the most part I wouldn't have a problem driving through there or maybe even buying there if I were to move back. My grandparents lived close to that area in the 70's, behind about where Mutt's is. Still driving through that area is not like it was driving down State Street in South Chicago in the 90's, that is really the only time that I have "felt" a bad vibe driving through an area.

[zookeeper]

I can understand what he is saying but for the most part I wouldn't have a problem driving through there or maybe even buying there if I were to move back. My grandparents lived close to that area in the 70's, behind about where Mutt's is. Still driving through that area is not like it was driving down State Street in South Chicago in the 90's, that is really the only time that I have "felt" a bad vibe driving through an area.

But what did he mean when he said if Jim didn't feel safe - he's "part of the problem?" It's like we're all supposed to celebrate rough neighborhoods? Adds to the "diversity?"

[bluedogok]

To some people, I can see where they think that area is "rough", especially if they have memories from when they lived there as a different type of neighborhood. Heck even my parents neighborhood is way different than when I was growing up and most would consider it "rougher" than it was 40 years ago. I don't get the "part of the problem" statement either as I don't think Jim is the likely demographic for a renaissance of the area. In fact I am probably on the high end of the age group that would bring that neighborhood back but I guess it is because of my field that I see possibilities in those old areas. Too many of my non-architecture/construction friends just see an "old neighborhood" and wouldn't think twice about it, even those significantly younger than I am. Many of those just think anything other than a brand new neighborhood as "rough".

[Teo9969]

I was going to let this go, but what the %^&$$ are you talking about? Jim was saying that he didn't feel completely safe driving through a neighborhood that he once lived in. The fact the "hood" has taken over the area is not the problem?

Not entirely sure how you came to the conclusion that those are my feelings.

The problem is Jim not feeling safe driving through there?

"Part of" is an important modifier that ought not be left out.

In fact, you think because of that, he's part of the problem? Is this some kind of weird "diversity training" claptrap? Sometimes I think the whole fricking world has gone insane.

But what did he mean when he said if Jim didn't feel safe - he's "part of the problem?" It's like we're all supposed to celebrate rough neighborhoods? Adds to the "diversity?"

Where did you get this idea that I'm pro rough neighborhoods?

Look...I didn't say "Oh, if you won't take a leisurely stroll at Midnight in this 'hood' then you're part of the problem". Jim intimated that he would hesitate to simply drive through this area, ostensibly at any time. So he would defer his traffic via an indirect route were he traveling in proximity, again, at any time based on Jim's non-specification.

Nowhere in OKC is so bad that you can't DRIVE through it between 8AM and 6PM...unless you've done something to piss someone off in the area. This is not the bad areas of a big city. If your sense of security is so timid as to force a detour in your route around an area that simply is not that bad, then you're enabling the sequestering of an area to a perpetual roughness: Activity in an area discourages rough behavior. If you're intentionally depriving an area of activity that would otherwise occur, then you're part of the segregating of said area away from the rest of the community.

Now, had Jim qualified his reasoning for not feeling secure, then the reason may have been acceptable to say "fair enough". But without qualification, no area in this city is an established haven of non-discretionary, impartial personal attacks simply for driving through. There are legitimate places in the world where that is the case, and nowhere in OKC is as such, or it would be a community wide understanding, and the city would issue warning about said area.

[mkjeeves]

I was going to let this go, but what the %^&$$ are you talking about? Jim was saying that he didn't feel completely safe driving through a neighborhood that he once lived in. The fact the "hood" has taken over the area is not the problem? The problem is Jim not feeling safe driving through there? In fact, you think because of that, he's part of the problem?Is this some kind of weird "diversity training" claptrap? Sometimes I think the whole fricking world has gone insane.

Naw. Just some of the urbanistas. Besides this stupidity, upthread someone spoke many good things about OKC, they just happened to not be all be about downtown, but about other parts of OKC that are appealing and why. In so many words he was told to get out.

Cite: http://www.okctalk.com/ask-anything-...tml#post695079

[Jim Kyle]

Now, had Jim qualified his reasoning for not feeling secure, then the reason may have been acceptable to say "fair enough". But without qualification, no area in this city is an established haven of non-discretionary, impartial personal attacks simply for driving through. There are legitimate places in the world where that is the case, and nowhere in OKC is as such, or it would be a community wide understanding, and the city would issue warning about said area.

I had planned to simply ignore the comment, but it seems to have taken on a life of its own so here's a bit more detail: The crime rate in that area, while it seems to be dropping slowly, is still well above the city-wide average. The biggest problem appears to be drug houses, though, with fewer drive-by shootings than in the northeast or southwest quadrants (in both of which I've also lived; my sons still own the house on SW 60 to which I moved from NW 8, and mine was the last white family to leave the home on NE 44 that I occupied from 1962 ro 1967).

Back in the late 50s, when strict segregation was still the primary way of life in OKC, I had no probolem at all driving to a place near the old Moon Junior High on NE 2 known simply as "Tony's," which was an all-night joint run by the Potts twins with good barbecue, great camp coffee, and a rotating crowd of regulars that ranged from hookers to ad agency folk to squad cops. Everyone considered it as neutral ground and the conventional rules simply didn't apply. It was where I first heard Mason Williams play, and learned to appreciate Miles Davis. And the whole area was considered "off limits" by much of white OKC, although it was hardly a ghetto...

Actually, my remark that touched off this discussion was perhaps a bit more hyperbole, intended to drive home the extent to which that area declined between 1958 and today, than precise fact. I'd have no more problem driving through it during daylight hours than I would MLK, NE 36, or SW 29 -- which is to say, none at all. The wee hours of the morning, however, would make all those locations into places to be a bit more on my guard than, say, on the Kilpatrick Turnpike...

[Teo9969]

I had planned to simply ignore the comment, but it seems to have taken on a life of its own so here's a bit more detail: The crime rate in that area, while it seems to be dropping slowly, is still well above the city-wide average. The biggest problem appears to be drug houses, though, with fewer drive-by shootings than in the northeast or southwest quadrants (in both of which I've also lived; my sons still own the house on SW 60 to which I moved from NW 8, and mine was the last white family to leave the home on NE 44 that I occupied from 1962 ro 1967).

Back in the late 50s, when strict segregation was still the primary way of life in OKC, I had no probolem at all driving to a place near the old Moon Junior High on NE 2 known simply as "Tony's," which was an all-night joint run by the Potts twins with good barbecue, great camp coffee, and a rotating crowd of regulars that ranged from hookers to ad agency folk to squad cops. Everyone considered it as neutral ground and the conventional rules simply didn't apply. It was where I first heard Mason Williams play, and learned to appreciate Miles Davis. And the whole area was considered "off limits" by much of white OKC, although it was hardly a ghetto...

Actually, my remark that touched off this discussion was perhaps a bit more hyperbole, intended to drive home the extent to which that area declined between 1958 and today, than precise fact. I'd have no more problem driving through it during daylight hours than I would MLK, NE 36, or SW 29 -- which is to say, none at all. The wee hours of the morning, however, would make all those locations into places to be a bit more on my guard than, say, on the Kilpatrick Turnpike...

This is actually inline with what I actually suspected your thoughts on the matter to be. Having read many of your posts, I have a great respect for you Jim, and certainly my comments were not intended to paint you as a person who opposes "diversity".

The only reason I said what I said was because there are people who make such statements and mean them quite literally and seriously. And anytime the area in question comes up or anytime they're referencing the rough parts of OKC, they paint it as if it's a gang land that you're sure to lose your life if you enter.

In fairness to you, I should have addressed it dialectically rather than the sophomoric approach I took.

I blame it on being 4 Coop Native Ambers and an OU loss to Texas in to the day

[RadicalModerate]

I hate to say this, but if you hesitate to drive through any part of OKC, you're part of the problem...

Many people would claim that if you DRIVE through ANY part of OKC you're, part of the problem.
They would prefer that you be on a bicycle or walking.

[bradh]

There is nowhere in OKC that anyone shouldn't feel safe driving through. I remember my dad driving me through the Bloody Nickel (Fifth Ward) in Houston when I was a youngster and I only needed to see the area once. Rough.

[Teo9969]

Many people would claim that if you DRIVE through ANY part of OKC you're, part of the problem.
They would prefer that you be on a bicycle or walking.

Ha!

Indeed.

[Achilleslastand]

There is nowhere in OKC that anyone shouldn't feel safe driving through. I remember my dad driving me through the Bloody Nickel (Fifth Ward) in Houston when I was a youngster and I only needed to see the area once. Rough.

It could not be any worse then North Las Vegas or North Tulsa......

[RadicalModerate]

There is NOWHERE in OKC that compares--in sheer drive-thru uneasiness--to Prospect Avenue, South of I-70, in KC.
You have to accidentally drive it once to know what I mean (and it seems to go on for miles and miles).

[kevinpate]

Years back, there were places I would go between 10 pm and 3 am that a lot of folks I know would feel uneasy going in daylight hours. Couldn't be helped. That's when folks were home and awake, some due to having worked more than one shift or job, some because 9 or 10 am was no different for them than 5 or 6 am was for me, the typical start of the day. Though if we were seeing someone at 2-3, the next office day did tend to start a bit later unless it was straight back in after an interview was over.

Even today, there's not really anywhere in the metro where I would divert myself around it, day or night, but yes, some areas my sense of awareness is a tad higher than it other areas. Let's be real. Some peeps wearing certain colors can be intent on messing with you. But to be fair, most patrol officers are really quite calm and collected day or night.

[bradh]

There is NOWHERE in OKC that compares--in sheer drive-thru uneasiness--to Prospect Avenue, South of I-70, in KC.
You have to accidentally drive it once to know what I mean (and it seems to go on for miles and miles).

I was just around 31st and Prospect Friday afternoon.

The parts of the 5th ward in Houston I saw were straight up projects like you'd see in rap videos. (for reference of this area, the area in this video is the 5th ward Dizzee Rascal-Where Da G's - YouTube), and you'd raise some eyebrows just strolling through there no matter the time of day.

[CuatrodeMayo]

South Chicago...it went on for miles...

[bluedogok]

South Chicago...it went on for miles...

Especially in the early to mid 90's when the burned out shells of those towers were still around and people were still living in the unburned units. Only one tower left now and it is vacant.

[RadicalModerate]

I was just around 31st and Prospect Friday afternoon.

The parts of the 5th ward in Houston I saw were straight up projects like you'd see in rap videos. (for reference of this area, the area in this video is the 5th ward Dizzee Rascal-Where Da G's - YouTube), and you'd raise some eyebrows just strolling through there no matter the time of day.

Hope you had a chance to "lunch" at Arthur Bryant's near 12th St. and Vine.

To paraphrase Hoyt Axton . . .
Well, I've never been to Compton,
but I've been to Kansas City.
Seen the debris and the sh!tty
Wish I was in OKCity.
(poetic license =)

Say! Maybe the Revitalization of NW OKC could include a Blues Club!
Dedicated, with sincere appreciation and a tip o' the proverbial hat, to Cuatrodemayo , <above> =)
Note to Music Fans: it is the entire album. let it play.

(This was on Vanguard Records--back in the day. Ironic? Iconic? mebbe. =)

[adaniel]

There are no places in this state, and very few places in the United States that one could drive in during the day and have to worry about their safety. In the past few years I have driven through both The Bronx (Mott Haven) and Watts, Los Angeles and nobody yanked me from my car and pistol whipped me for my Raybans. Some parts of Watts were quite attractive, although many houses did have burglar bars on them. In fact I stopped at a gas station and most people were, gasp, pleasant. Now this isn't to say these areas don't have serious issues but most folks that live in these areas are hardworking working class fellow Americans.

Honestly, all this is just further proof how much this country has jumped the shark and succumb to fear. I blame it on the internet, personally. I knew a girl who went on a business trip to the east coast and actually demanded her flight be changed because she didn't want to connect in Detroit. She had heard how crime ridden Detroit was and was so fearful that she would be mugged or raped in the airport. Never mind the DTW is like 20 miles outside the city.

[RadicalModerate]

Re: Post 195, above.

Couldn't have stated it better myself. Thank you.

[bradh]

That's pretty sad, adaniel. Scared to fly through DTW?

[adaniel]

I've known her and her family for some time now. They were seemingly normal people until about 3 years ago when her dad became an Alex Jones/doomsday prepper fanatic. In doing so, he started spouting off kookery about how rapists, murderers, and criminal evildoers are everywhere lurking in the shadows ready to pounce. This has started rubbing off on her, unfortunately.

I remember when she first told me about this and I actually laughed about it because I thought she was joking. She got really offended and had such a look of terror in her face, as if the mere act of flying over Detroit would get you shot by people on the ground lol. Last time I checked bullets don't go thousands of feet up in the air. The really sad thing is that I am noticing an irrational level of fear like this starting to take over a pretty large segment of society.

[Jim Kyle]

The really sad thing is that I am noticing an irrational level of fear like this starting to take over a pretty large segment of society.

I don't think that's any accident, either. It seems to be an orchestrated effort among all the mass media and many officials, to a degree that Josef Goebbels would admire were he still around to see it.

When it becomes sufficiently pervasive, it will be time for The Man on the White Horse to come save us from the threats...

[Rover]

I don't think that's any accident, either. It seems to be an orchestrated effort among all the mass media and many officials, to a degree that Josef Goebbels would admire were he still around to see it.

When it becomes sufficiently pervasive, it will be time for The Man on the White Horse to come save us from the threats...

Are you being serious or sarcastic? Surely not serious. If so, this is akin to not flying through Detroit.

Some people must still check under their bed for the boogieman before they can go to sleep.