Odot

[catch22]

300 million - 400 million for commuter rail for the entire metro (save the NW side as it lacks current right of way or infrastructure) is a good investment. The 5 miles of relocated I-40 cost almost 1 billion. (Although it is to be noted the city didn't spend that much -- it is still a good example of the cost of concrete)

[Plutonic Panda]

I'd still rather see a light rail. :/

[venture]

If you (anyone) want’s a successful commuter rail system that has ongoing support it is absolutely critical that a stop be made as close to OU as possible…. even if it means tearing out old apartments and or old rent houses.

I don't disagree with this, and the section I pointed out isn't that bad. The area with the least impact is going to be south of Lindsey however. Unless you really want to open the door for eminent domain to come into play here. I'm not sure how familiar you are with that part of Central/East Norman (since you are way up in the NW corner) but that section on the east side of the track are all going to be mostly single family homes. I'm sure a good deal of them of rentals. So if the state wants to avoid the wonders of taking over property for "fair" prices, then the options come to using part of the Duck Pond property or pushing it south of the UHaul facility. You might have enough room to do it there with a commuter parking lot across Classen. If you go further south on Classen before 12th you start to get much more room to play with. CART can also time shuttles to campus based on the train arrival times. It also would leave the station with in walking distance to two large apartment complexes and bicycle distance of all of campus.

There are people who attend OU events who have a great amount of influence in our state. If they like what they see, then the commuter rail system will get the funding they need for ongoing and expanded operations. When this comes up for a vote there will be more support for commuter rail if in part it’s sold as transportation to OU events. There is no getting around this^ and it would be very stupid for supporters to ignore.

It would be great to get to the events, but then they are going to face the obvious question. "Great, so that is 6-8 weeks out of the year, we about the other 44-46 weeks?"

Since Rock Creak Street is blocked by the airport and since Tecumseh is now a major east west street. It makes it the best location for a park and ride stop. This will become increasingly true as more housing is built on the north and west sides of Norman.

So use Robinson instead? Putting a rail stop at Tecumseh moves it further away from the core population of Norman. It is far from the best, maybe best for those suburbanites who chose to build out in BFE, but not to the core population of Central Norman. Robinson is also no longer blocked by railroad tracks, which Tecumseh would be. You also have the ability to utilize space on the airport for additional parking. I'm sure state officials would appreciate being able to take the train to Norman and just walk across Flood to the hangar.

A downtown Norman train station is simply unrealistic and is a waste of time to even think about.

With the other two spots, absolutely.

As far as I am concerned commuter rail will always need subsidized.. The question is how much and from whom? I wouldn’t mind either a sales tax increase or a small gasoline tax increase or a combination of both.

I would like to see what the total build out plan would look like and what the subsidy is going to be.

As I understand the plan…. A person from Norman wanting to go to the OKC airport would need to take the train to downtown OKC then take an express bus that will depart for the airport every 10 minutes.

So let's say perfect conditions.

Norman/Lindsey Station to Downtown OKC - 20 miles = 50 minutes +/- depending on stops
Downtown OKC - WRWA via Bus - 10 miles = 20 minutes depending on traffic

So they just turned my normal 25-35 minute drive into something that will be at least 70 minutes or more.

[Plutonic Panda]

Is it possible that they could have an "exclusive train" that travels at 100mph, goes straight to downtown Edmond and vice versa?Downtown OKC too obviously? Only comes during morning/evening you pay a little bit more and it does it, maybe, 3 times morning and 2 times evening?

[venture]

Is it possible that they could have an "exclusive train" that travels at 100mph, goes straight to downtown Edmond and vice versa?Downtown OKC too obviously? Only comes during morning/evening you pay a little bit more and it does it, maybe, 3 times morning and 2 times evening?

Too costly to get the tracks upgraded to handle that. It would also be pretty pointless over such a short distance.

[Just the facts]

I guess it all depends on what problem we are trying to solve with rail. I am trying to solve sprawl, which in turns solves lots of other problems. For those not trying to solve sprawl, what are you trying to fix?

[BoulderSooner]

If you (anyone) want’s a successful commuter rail system that has ongoing support it is absolutely critical that a stop be made as close to OU as possible…. even if it means tearing out old apartments and or old rent houses.

There are people who attend OU events who have a great amount of influence in our state. If they like what they see, then the commuter rail system will get the funding they need for ongoing and expanded operations. When this comes up for a vote there will be more support for commuter rail if in part it’s sold as transportation to OU events. There is no getting around this^ and it would be very stupid for supporters to ignore.



Since Rock Creak Street is blocked by the airport and since Tecumseh is now a major east west street. It makes it the best location for a park and ride stop. This will become increasingly true as more housing is built on the north and west sides of Norman.

A downtown Norman train station is simply unrealistic and is a waste of time to even think about.

As far as I am concerned commuter rail will always need subsidized.. The question is how much and from whom? I wouldn’t mind either a sales tax increase or a small gasoline tax increase or a combination of both.


As I understand the plan…. A person from Norman wanting to go to the OKC airport would need to take the train to downtown OKC then take an express bus that will depart for the airport every 10 minutes.

it is very likely that a train will go to the airport as well ..

[ou48A]

it is very likely that a train will go to the airport as well ..

From the plans I have seen the OKC airport will have express bus service from downtown OKC…..
But it would be nice if they did have a fast train to OKC’s airport.

[ou48A]

I don't disagree with this, and the section I pointed out isn't that bad. The area with the least impact is going to be south of Lindsey however. Unless you really want to open the door for eminent domain to come into play here. I'm not sure how familiar you are with that part of Central/East Norman (since you are way up in the NW corner) but that section on the east side of the track are all going to be mostly single family homes. I'm sure a good deal of them of rentals. So if the state wants to avoid the wonders of taking over property for "fair" prices, then the options come to using part of the Duck Pond property or pushing it south of the UHaul facility. You might have enough room to do it there with a commuter parking lot across Classen. If you go further south on Classen before 12th you start to get much more room to play with. CART can also time shuttles to campus based on the train arrival times. It also would leave the station with in walking distance to two large apartment complexes and bicycle distance of all of campus.



It would be great to get to the events, but then they are going to face the obvious question. "Great, so that is 6-8 weeks out of the year, we about the other 44-46 weeks?"



So use Robinson instead? Putting a rail stop at Tecumseh moves it further away from the core population of Norman. It is far from the best, maybe best for those suburbanites who chose to build out in BFE, but not to the core population of Central Norman. Robinson is also no longer blocked by railroad tracks, which Tecumseh would be. You also have the ability to utilize space on the airport for additional parking. I'm sure state officials would appreciate being able to take the train to Norman and just walk across Flood to the hangar.



With the other two spots, absolutely.



I would like to see what the total build out plan would look like and what the subsidy is going to be.



So let's say perfect conditions.

Norman/Lindsey Station to Downtown OKC - 20 miles = 50 minutes +/- depending on stops
Downtown OKC - WRWA via Bus - 10 miles = 20 minutes depending on traffic

So they just turned my normal 25-35 minute drive into something that will be at least 70 minutes or more.

The right of eminent domain may be needed but the area I see the biggest need for it would be on the west side of the tracks, north of Brooks. My perfect location for an OU train station would be on the North West side of the Duck Pond. This would likely require the removal of part of an apartment complex and maybe a few old homes. I think OU would like to have control over most of this land anyway. The RR siding could continue south on the west side of the Duck Pond in an elevated state crossing over Lindsey St before rejoining the main track line. This would be a much better Amtrak stop for students and for others wanting to catch a bus or the commuter train.

As I mentioned previously the North West corner of the Duck Pond is where they plan on building an intermodal bus station. OU has thousands of students, staff, faculty, and visitors daily. With a park and ride and a bus system that would target OU and the older parts of Norman. I really don’t think there would be a shortage of every day riders. The core population of Norman is much less likely to be commuters, but they would have bus service to either Norman train stop and they would still have the ability to drive to either location.

I think it’s important to remember how Norman will evolve over the next 50 years and beyond. This is something that needs to be done right from the very start. With the large tracks of vacant land large nearby apartment complexes and condos are a distinct possibility at a Tecumseh station location. Major new high density housing is virtually imposable near Robison. Norman will continue to grow to the north. Tecumseh is a well-designed street with other well designed streets in the area.

For somebody who commutes from Norman to work at OKC’s airport daily this isn’t that practical, but if you are taking a flight it might not be that bad.

I think I understood that eventually there would be a central Oklahoma metro bus system that would feed the train and operated with express bus service to select locations.

Taking the train from Edmond & Norman to OKC downtown events that occur with frequency is another way to sell the plan. Planers need to have the capacity to handle events. Having some spare capacity will allow for more flexibility to service high demand events but also give the system the ability to better maintain equipment.

[venture]

From the plans I have seen the OKC airport will have express bus service from downtown OKC…..
But it would be nice if they did have a fast train to OKC’s airport.

Which makes it pointless unless you are nearby to take it.

The right of eminent domain may be needed but the area I see the biggest need for it would be on the west side of the tracks, north of Brooks. My perfect location for an OU train station would be on the North West side of the Duck Pond. This would likely require the removal of part of an apartment complex and maybe a few old homes. I think OU would like to have control over most of this land anyway. The RR siding could continue south on the west side of the Duck Pond in an elevated state crossing over Lindsey St before rejoining the main track line. This would be a much better Amtrak stop for students and for others wanting to catch a bus or the commuter train.

Umm. Have you even looked at a map? NW side of the Duck Pond does not have enough room for something like this. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the land requirements for a commuter rail station, but it'll have to go east of the Duck Pond if not east of the tracks completely. You also have an OG&E power sub station right there at Brooks and the tracks. If they are bent on having it west of the tracks right now then putting it in the park area of the Duck Pond (east side) would be the most logical placement.

As I mentioned previously the North West corner of the Duck Pond is where they plan on building an intermodal bus station. OU has thousands of students, staff, faculty, and visitors daily. With a park and ride and a bus system that would target OU and the older parts of Norman. I really don’t think there would be a shortage of every day riders. The core population of Norman is much less likely to be commuters, but they would have bus service to either Norman train stop and they would still have the ability to drive to either location.

The bus facility and train station don't have to be the same building...people can walk a little to connect form one to the other. You also need room for a commuter lot if they intend on having Norman residents use it to go to the city. Your area NW of the Duck Pond is locked with development already except for a campus parking lot which can be easily converted.

I think it’s important to remember how Norman will evolve over the next 50 years and beyond. This is something that needs to be done right from the very start. With the large tracks of vacant land large nearby apartment complexes and condos are a distinct possibility at a Tecumseh station location. Major new high density housing is virtually imposable near Robison. Norman will continue to grow to the north. Tecumseh is a well-designed street with other well designed streets in the area.

Of course, but you have to consider what we are talking about here...Commuter Rail - not light rail. Light rail seems to be more of what they are wanting if they want stops so close together. I'm not sure what you experience with riding commuter rail has been, but this is starting to sound more and more like light rail. Commuter rail uses the full size rail cars and engines, not subway-like trains.

For somebody who commutes from Norman to work at OKC’s airport daily this isn’t that practical, but if you are taking a flight it might not be that bad.

I could see it being more beneficial to the business traveler that isn't lugging around a bunch of bags or is traveling on a schedule that works with the mass transit options.

Taking the train from Edmond & Norman to OKC downtown events that occur with frequency is another way to sell the plan. Planers need to have the capacity to handle events. Having some spare capacity will allow for more flexibility to service high demand events but also give the system the ability to better maintain equipment.

You can't bank the whole system on special events. That is like trying to tell airlines to beef up service to New Orleans year round because they hosted the Super Bowl this year and Mardi Gras is coming up. There needs to be a business case for offering frequent service throughout the day with ridership that will be steady. Again...20-30 years down the road this area may be there, today it will be nothing more than a novelty that will wear off quick.

[ou48A]

Which makes it pointless unless you are nearby to take it.



Umm. Have you even looked at a map? NW side of the Duck Pond does not have enough room for something like this. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the land requirements for a commuter rail station, but it'll have to go east of the Duck Pond if not east of the tracks completely. You also have an OG&E power sub station right there at Brooks and the tracks. If they are bent on having it west of the tracks right now then putting it in the park area of the Duck Pond (east side) would be the most logical placement.



The bus facility and train station don't have to be the same building...people can walk a little to connect form one to the other. You also need room for a commuter lot if they intend on having Norman residents use it to go to the city. Your area NW of the Duck Pond is locked with development already except for a campus parking lot which can be easily converted.



Of course, but you have to consider what we are talking about here...Commuter Rail - not light rail. Light rail seems to be more of what they are wanting if they want stops so close together. I'm not sure what you experience with riding commuter rail has been, but this is starting to sound more and more like light rail. Commuter rail uses the full size rail cars and engines, not subway-like trains.



I could see it being more beneficial to the business traveler that isn't lugging around a bunch of bags or is traveling on a schedule that works with the mass transit options.



You can't bank the whole system on special events. That is like trying to tell airlines to beef up service to New Orleans year round because they hosted the Super Bowl this year and Mardi Gras is coming up. There needs to be a business case for offering frequent service throughout the day with ridership that will be steady. Again...20-30 years down the road this area may be there, today it will be nothing more than a novelty that will wear off quick.

I have been to the OU duck pond and the large parking lot on the North West corner of the Duck pond hundreds of times…….

An elevated platform that extends northward and over Brooks Street and south of the parking lot affords this location plenty of space for a lengthy passenger train with full size rail cars and engines.

A waiting room could be built in the parking lot. The tracks and a covered platform would be located well west of the OG&E power substation.

As I explained in my previous post….. I don’t think there will be a shortage of every day riders, at least in Norman…. There are thousands of Norman commuters who not only drive to downtown OKC but there are also many who come to OU daily….

So this is not a system based on just on special events.

But if you want to successfully sell commuter rail to the public special events had better be included in selling the plan to the public or risk a significantly lower chance of vote passage by the public.

[Plutonic Panda]

ODOT's new 8 year plan. . . http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/cirb/...7_workplan.pdf

[LakeEffect]

ODOT's new 8 year plan. . . http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/cirb/...7_workplan.pdf

That's the 5 year work plan for County Improvements for Roads and Bridges...

[Dubya61]

Interestingly enough, I didn't see ANYTHING in there for Cleveland County. Wonder if they are all in good shape or being blacklisted somehow by ODOT.

[adaniel]

That is not the full report, just county roads.

This might be more helpful: http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/cwp-8...y2013-2020.pdf

[BoulderSooner]

That is not the full report, just county roads.

This might be more helpful: http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/cwp-8...y2013-2020.pdf

and that is the old 8 year plan .. that came out 9/2012

[Plutonic Panda]

Didn't even realize it. Hang on, I'll look for it again.

Here is the press release: http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/newsm...n_approved.pdf

[Plutonic Panda]

Construction Work Plan

http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/cwp-8...y2013-2020.pdf

hopefully this is better.

[BoulderSooner]

Construction Work Plan

http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/cwp-8...y2013-2020.pdf

hopefully this is better.

press release is current ... 8 year plan is still the 2012 release

[adaniel]

I think the confusion is the new 8-year plan is only for county and rural roads. Just my best guess...there has likely been no change to the current 8 year plan for major roadways.

[Plutonic Panda]

awww that sucks. I thought maybe they moved some major projects up. . . :/

[BoulderSooner]

I think the confusion is the new 8-year plan is only for county and rural roads. Just my best guess...there has likely been no change to the current 8 year plan for major roadways.

the link just hasn't been updated yet the new 8 year plan includes phases moved up for the I44 I235 interchange ... and the start of the crossroads interchange in 2015 ..

the 5 year CIRB plan .. is something totally different

[adaniel]

^
Likely this. I will just keep my mouth shut now

[Plutonic Panda]

the link just hasn't been updated yet the new 8 year plan includes phases moved up for the I44 I235 interchange ... and the start of the crossroads interchange in 2015 ..

the 5 year CIRB plan .. is something totally different

oh, awesome then!!!!

[tzshaner]

It looks like this is the new report. Dated Oct 7, 2013

http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/cwp-8...y2014-2021.pdf