UA: OKC-LAX Nonstop

[HOT ROD]

Dulles should be announced by the end of the year. There is a need to move some exPlus RJs to IAD before it will be launched.

Thanks Venture. That will be awesome news.

Then OKC will be well served by United, access to every hub airport in their system (save SFO) plus regional focus cities.

I have to say Im impressed on the approach United is taking. Instead of just going in full blast, they are doing what makes sense economically - while at the same time recognizing that OKC is underserved in their route system.

This is something i've been saying all along - that OKC should at least have one nonstop daily to each of United's hub cities. Those are Chicago-O'hare, Denver, Los Angeles, Washington-Dulles, and San Francisco. We will have all of them (hopefully SFO will be in the works after we get IAD).

I also think OKC is well suited for at least once a week nonstop to United's "gateway" cities. Those being Miami, New York-JFK, Seattle/Tacoma, and perhaps Boston-Logan. I think a creative approach to make it work would be at least once a week, midweek, might be doable maybe twice a week (early then late week) - with the target being large business customer and international traveler (althought Intl options out of SeaTac are limited to Tokyo).

I think we could/should start with Direct flights to the cities not already served (SFO, SEA, JFK, BOS, MIA). That might give us more flights to the hub cities (1 for direct to the aformentioned, 1 for nonstop to the core-hub city). For example, we could have 2 flights a day to LA (one nonstop in the am which continues direct to Seattle, the second nonstop like the current schedule (afternoon to LA)). Plus that might warrant larger mainliner airplanes into the city - since they would fly direct to the other city after picking up more pax in the hub. :tweeted:

I hope this can be done, can you guys imagine having these selections of cities to fly nonstop: Boston, Chicago, Denver, Los Angeles, Miami, New Orleans, New York, San Antonio, San Francisco, Seattle/Tacoma, Washington DC - 11 major cities on one airline!!! [and to think we already have 5 (with LA) soon to be 6 (with DC).

I say, go United! and hopefully with OKC perhaps rising to a focus city for them - we will support them. Im certain the business community will - so hopefully that will continue the grown of that sector as well as tourism!!!

[HOT ROD]

And yes, I agree about the CLT and PIT flights on USAirways. USA is a member of United's Star Alliance - so passengers should be thrilled to be able to fly to the following cities nonstop and collect miles:

Charlotte (hopefully they are next on USAir)
Chicago
Denver
Las Vegas (thanks America West!!! we can get United miles on USAir flights NONSTOP to vegas!!!)
Los Angeles
New Orleans
Phoenix
San Antonio
San Francisco (I hope they are next, after IAD)
Washington (hopefully soon, as Venture notes) [hopefully we could also get BWI service (or at least direct on a mainliner via CLT) as that would give us another B-WAShington option)

Add in direct service (at least) to the airline's gateway/focus/mtc cities and i think the business and leisure traveler would be well served on United/US Airways/Star Alliance from Oklahoma City. A great selling point for the city to businesses and tourists!!!!

[HOT ROD]

guys, sorry for the triple post. This is tooo exciting!!!

I read one of your posts, then reply. Then go b ack and read more. then reply again.

Sorry, but I am soo happy for OKC and United/Us Airways/Star Alliance. It looks like they will become a fierce competitor in OKC to WN!! Unfortunatley, looks like American/Oneworld gave up on OKC, as the only thing we have from them is DFW, ORD (on a regional jet at that), and STL (also regional jet).

GO United/Star Alliance!!!

I was also wondering, with USAir possibly adding CLT (and hopefully direct 1-stop continuing to BWI) would this finally encourage WN to add a nonstop to BWI from OKC? Ditto Chicago Midway!. I can't believe WN doesnt already have a nonstop to those markets from OKC.

[brianinok]

Do we know how the OKC-LAX route is doing?

[venture]

Weekend loads are good as can be expected...doing the week its decent. We are heading into a crappy time for air travel for the next month, so it'll just have to hang on.

[OUman]

Right now we're down to about 75 departures daily, that alone is a good indicator of the slow season.

[ChristianConservative]

Right now we're down to about 75 departures daily, that alone is a good indicator of the slow season.

And a good reason why we don't need to expand our airport anymore.

I'm not against progress, but I can't see wasting tax-payer money on something we don't need.

[mranderson]

And a good reason why we don't need to expand our airport anymore.

I'm not against progress, but I can't see wasting tax-payer money on something we don't need.

No. We need to plan a second terminal for a hub, plus we need the gates we were promised several years ago.

If you research past threads, you will find one where I proved we have the least number of gates of any city our size in the nation... What a shame that is.

[venture]

No. We need to plan a second terminal for a hub, plus we need the gates we were promised several years ago.

If you research past threads, you will find one where I proved we have the least number of gates of any city our size in the nation... What a shame that is.

I'm sure some shrink out there can jump in and diagnose whatever condition you have, but I'll just go with lack of common sense.

You do realize that a lot of major airports in the nation and world have aircraft parked on remote stands? You don't need to have a jetbridge for every aircraft. In fact...I would like for you to go out and compile what the utilization rate is at the similar sized airports you are comparing us against. I would also ask that you figure out the average number of pax used per gate at those airports and the typical size of aircraft that uses those gates. I hate to tell you, you will be disappointed. OKC is very heavy in the RJ department...whereas other cities like Austin are leaning more towards mainline.

We can plan any number of terminals across the airport grounds, but it won't happen. Airline hubs are being downsized or have failed in the last 5 years in cities MUCH more attractive than OKC.

PIT - downsized by US
CVG - being downsized by DL
DFW - eliminated by DL
STL - downsized by AA

or failed attempts include...FLL, MCI, DAY, IND, BNA, RDU, CMH, COS, etc.

[mranderson]

I'm sure some shrink out there can jump in and diagnose whatever condition you have, but I'll just go with lack of common sense.

You do realize that a lot of major airports in the nation and world have aircraft parked on remote stands? You don't need to have a jetbridge for every aircraft. In fact...I would like for you to go out and compile what the utilization rate is at the similar sized airports you are comparing us against. I would also ask that you figure out the average number of pax used per gate at those airports and the typical size of aircraft that uses those gates. I hate to tell you, you will be disappointed. OKC is very heavy in the RJ department...whereas other cities like Austin are leaning more towards mainline.

We can plan any number of terminals across the airport grounds, but it won't happen. Airline hubs are being downsized or have failed in the last 5 years in cities MUCH more attractive than OKC.

PIT - downsized by US
CVG - being downsized by DL
DFW - eliminated by DL
STL - downsized by AA

or failed attempts include...FLL, MCI, DAY, IND, BNA, RDU, CMH, COS, etc.

And what makes you this self proclaimed expert on local aviation? I could care less what you think. WE NEED A LARGER COMMECIAL AIRPORT BECAUSE OURS IS THE SMALLEST OF ANY CITY OUR SIZE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[OUman]

All of what venture said is true, it's absolute fact. PIT lost the US hub (it's a focus city now), CVG's being downsized, DL got rid of DFW and STL was and still is being downsized by AA. So just because the terminal at OKC is the smallest of any city our size in your opinion, we need to get a bigger terminal, and moreover build a second one. Seems to me you just don't get it. Hubs require at least 20-30% O&D traffic, we have 3.5 million pax/yr, and pretty much all of it is O&D. You figure out how we can have a hub here. Even the small Continental Connection micro-hub at Albany Int'l didn't work out, it had to be dropped.

[Kerry]

Just out of curisoity, when I lived in Tampa there were billboards around town for a number of airlines. Even here in Jacksonville there are several airline billboars. They all have catchy phrases like "Philly by 5". I don't recall ever seeing an airline billboard in OKC. Has anyone ever seen one around town?

[mranderson]

"So just because the terminal at OKC is the smallest of any city our size in your opinion."

No. That is a fact, and I proved it. Research the archives and find the thread and you will see I spent a lot of time with figures on several major airports in cities around our size around the nation.

In addition, even our Mayor wrote me emails and told me I was quite correct about what we need. He even complimented me on my research skills. BTW. Do not ask me to post the email. It is private.

[okieopus]

Unfortunately the Hub and Spoke system really doesn't work. The carriers that don't really have hubs (correct me if I am wrong venture) like JetBlue and Southwest (AirCattle) are the only airlines consistently doing well.

Mranderson, I would love for OKC to be a hub, because a I love watching planes. But I think the country has all the hubs it is going to have.

I think we have a very nice size airport. Much nicer then most. It is always a pleasure to fly out of OKC. (Unless you fly United to New Orleans and they cancel your flight without telling you)

[ChristianConservative]

And what makes you this self proclaimed expert on local aviation? I could care less what you think. WE NEED A LARGER COMMECIAL AIRPORT BECAUSE OURS IS THE SMALLEST OF ANY CITY OUR SIZE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We don't need to be wasting money on a larger airport if we're not even using the one we currently have.

Creating this hub that you propose would be idiotic without any promises from airlines to locate here. Similar to the US govt. building bridges that lead to absolutely nowhere.

[ChristianConservative]

Unfortunately the Hub and Spoke system really doesn't work. The carriers that don't really have hubs (correct me if I am wrong venture) like JetBlue and Southwest (AirCattle) are the only airlines consistently doing well.

Actually JetBlue isn't doing well, and the major airlines are gaining steam as they cut costs. But overall, I agree with your assessment.

I think we have a very nice size airport. Much nicer then most. It is always a pleasure to fly out of OKC. (Unless you fly United to New Orleans and they cancel your flight without telling you)

I think we need to spend more money improving our existing airport, as we have, than considering building 50 gate mega airports, that we'll have to lease out for corporate parties, because the space won't be used.

[Pete]

Airport seeking flights
By Ja’Rena Lunsford Business Writer
Ja’Rena Lunsford: 475-3126, jlunsford@oklahoman.com

Officials at Will Rogers World Airport are working on strategies to entice commercial airlines to bring more nonstop flights to Oklahoma City.

Air service consultant Kevin Schorr said hoping for service from a particular airline is not enough. He said if an airport wants something, its leaders have to go get it.

“Airlines don’t just come to airports on their own. The airport actually has to go out and seek new service,” said Schorr, vice president of Campbell-Hill Aviation Group. The Virginia-based consulting firm advises Will Rogers and other airports on issues such as acquiring increased services.

Schorr and other aviation leaders spoke at the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber’s Breaking Through luncheon Thursday.

Pitching Oklahoma City to various airlines has allowed Will Rogers to secure additional flights. Mark Kranenburg, director of airports for Oklahoma City, said the focus has turned toward the east.

Schorr said the Washington area is among the largest areas with no nonstop service to and from Oklahoma City. Other areas are San Diego, Seattle, Orlando and the Bay Area.

Schorr said flights departing Oklahoma City average 74 percent full. He said those figures, as well as the strong economic development of the city, are selling points Kranenburg and his team can use when seeking new services.

“We need to go out of the way to show the airlines why it’s good for them to have service in Oklahoma City,” Schorr said. “Many of the airlines we talk to have no clue just how strong the demographics and economy are in Oklahoma City.”

John Jamotta, senior director of schedule planning for Southwest Airlines, said his company knows what Oklahoma City has to offer, but the turbulent times of the airlines industry make it hard to expand its services.

“I can’t commit to you that there will be more flights anytime soon, but I can commit to you that we understand this is a city on the move,” Jamotta said.

He said the airline industry is insolvent and it’s not likely to get better anytime soon because most airlines are either in bankruptcy or aren’t making money.

But the hard times do have a bright side for Southwest and other low-cost carriers, Jamotta said.

“I predict that 70 to 80 percent of business will be controlled by low-cost carriers,” Jamotta said. He said Southwest provides 15 to 20 percent of flight business in the nation.

Southwest is expected to get 35 new airplanes next year and another 35 in 2008. Jamotta said Southwest is planning how it will use the additional planes, but Oklahoma City could be a possibility.

“We make money here,” Jamotta said. “We are very proud of our product here.”

[ChristianConservative]

We need to be smart in what flights we attempt to attract here. Otherwise, we risk making ourselves look like a failed market to the airlines. The failed attempts for non-stops to San Antonio and New Orleans are good examples of non-stops that were started, only to have to be stopped due to lack of ridership.

[Pete]

Will Rogers doing well overall, officials say by Brian Brus
The Journal Record


10/6/2006 OKLAHOMA CITY – Will Rogers World Airport has surprised airline carriers with its strength in recent years, even though the industry as a whole is in a dismal state of affairs, Southwest Airlines spokesman John Jamotta told city leaders Thursday.

“My opinion is that business is terrible,” he said during the luncheon sponsored by the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber. He also called the industry “dysfunctional” and “insolvent,” struggling to make a profit.

And yet in Oklahoma City, “We’re very, very proud of our performance here,” he said. “We make money here, and we’re very happy about that.”

Jamotta and Kevin Schorr, vice president of the Campbell-Hill Aviation Group consulting firm, gave an overview of the city’s place in the airline industry, which was good overall, considering that airports nationwide lost massive numbers of passengers following the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11 five years ago.

Schorr said Will Rogers has gone from seven to eight carriers, losing Great Plains but gaining Frontier and America West. The airport has lost some routes but gained others, including a major coup in the direct flight to Los Angeles.

And he said that passengers coming to and leaving from Oklahoma City have continued to rise, even though flight capacity is down – a seemingly paradoxical development that speaks well for the area.

About 44 percent of flights out of Will Rogers are in larger, mainline jets, he said, with 56 in smaller, regional jets.

“There are some airports across the country … that have lost all of their mainline jet service,” he said.

It is Schorr’s firm’s job to help attract air service to client cities including Austin, Texas; Reno, Nev.; and San Jose, Calif. He said most major airlines rarely follow up to see how new markets are developing and what their potential suggests. But he said that Oklahoma City’s downtown revitalization captures their attention, when they are made aware of it.

[ChristianConservative]

I think we need to go after a wider variety of airlines, targeting JetBlue and other low cost carriers which currently don't serve our market.

[BDP]

Otherwise, we risk making ourselves look like a failed market to the airlines.

Very true. If they come and fail, they may not come back, even when we're ready.

But he said that Oklahoma City’s downtown revitalization captures their attention, when they are made aware of it.

It is amazing that some still deny that revitalizing downtown is beneficial for the whole city.

[davido]

United Airlines---Non-stop $238--1 stop- $198
thats for 3 week advance notice

and then a 1 week notice is 638.00 on united

and a 1 stop on us west is 168.00

[venture]

Unfortunately the Hub and Spoke system really doesn't work. The carriers that don't really have hubs (correct me if I am wrong venture) like JetBlue and Southwest (AirCattle) are the only airlines consistently doing well.

Mranderson, I would love for OKC to be a hub, because a I love watching planes. But I think the country has all the hubs it is going to have.

JetBlue you could argue has a hub at JFK...but they are also losing money right now. They are hoping to break even for Q3, so we'll see. The hub system still works for cities that can support the O&D...but is it really a hub system then? Good examples are Chicago, Atlanta, Dallas, New York and Washington. Majority of the traffic in these cities are O&D. OKC as a hub would more be like umm...oh yeah CVG, STL, and PIT with very low O&D. We've seen how well that has worked.

I think we need to spend more money improving our existing airport, as we have, than considering building 50 gate mega airports, that we'll have to lease out for corporate parties, because the space won't be used.

I'm with you here. OKC/WRWA needs to focus on a few major things. One...get one of the runways over 10,000 ft to handle long range cargo flights. Then work to get a cargo facility here. Right in the middle of the country with two major interstates crossing here...what better location? The only draw back is the lack of a real major railroad network here. I was reading an article about BAX Global and their decision to hub in Toledo OH about 10 years ago. These were all things they pointed out as key. Now the airport and city (size wise about half of OKC) provide a cargo network that provides nonstop/direct air service to 20 cities in the US, Canada and Mexico as well service cities in Germany, Japan, Middle East (received approval as one of 6 US cities for nonstop service to Baghdad when permitted), and Australia - weekly 747-400F operated jointly with Qantas. They are also looking to add flights to Central and South America.

These are opportunities that OKC can look to grasp. The airport doesn't have to revolve around passengers. There is the cargo, repair, military/government, and general aviation sector that also comes into play.

We need to be smart in what flights we attempt to attract here. Otherwise, we risk making ourselves look like a failed market to the airlines. The failed attempts for non-stops to San Antonio and New Orleans are good examples of non-stops that were started, only to have to be stopped due to lack of ridership.

Orlando was also another one that choked...but that had more to do with Delta eliminating a lot of connection cities from there.

If I were looking at goals for the next 5 years for WRWA this is what I would target...

1) Lengthen one of the parallel runways to 12,000 ft.
2) Increase the amount of repair services done in OKC.
3) Increase advertising across the state to raise awareness of existing services.
4) Work with a carrier such as Mesa, Great Lakes, or another to bring back intrastate service from towns like Woodward, Enid, Ada, Altus to allow for connection opportunities in OKC.
5) Expand the flight offerings...

American - bring in flights to Miami
US Airways - Charlotte, Philadelphia and Washington National service.
Allegiant - get them back to provide service to Orlando/Sanford and St. Pete.
United - Washingto Dulles and San Francisco
AirTran - Atlanta
Alaska - Seattle
JetBlue - New York JFK and Fort Lauderdale

Growth has to be balanced...and we'll need to ensure we don't over saturate with low cost carriers. Right now OKC has two...Southwest and US Airways. Allegiant would be a niche player so they work. AirTran and JetBlue wouldn't hurt each other too much. They would also run markets that wouldn't have an outright negative impact on existing airlines. Continental can hold its own to Newark with it being a major hub. Delta will get very agressive to Atlanta, but it shouldn't be much of a problem. However...that would be the highest risk route in my opinion.

[venture]

"So just because the terminal at OKC is the smallest of any city our size in your opinion."

No. That is a fact, and I proved it. Research the archives and find the thread and you will see I spent a lot of time with figures on several major airports in cities around our size around the nation.

In addition, even our Mayor wrote me emails and told me I was quite correct about what we need. He even complimented me on my research skills. BTW. Do not ask me to post the email. It is private.

Why do I get the image of this little kid coveting this small little box making it out that it is filled with gold? We are glad the mayor of OKC wrote you verses posting a direct response to all of us here on the board - which would have been nice so that way we can get his side of the story as well.

However...a politician will always say their city needs more. While those at Love Field, Fort Widget, The Sand Castle, WHQ in Chicago, or Houston would beg to differ. The terminal is right sized for the market now. Just because various cities have "X" number of gates per capita, does not mean we need more. There are some cities out there that are about half our size (pop wise) with only a quarter of the gates we have. Why? That is all that is needed. Should I even tell you that airports like St Petersburg and Long Beach don't even use jetbridges? All boarding by stairs. Heck look at Washington Dulles and New York JFK...plenty of stands in use there. Go outside the US and it is even greater...airports like Gatwick and Heathrow do a lot of boarding at remote stands.

OKC leadership needs to be more concerned with getting butts in the seats than having a loading bridge for every 50 seat regional jet that makes a stop.

74% load factors are great...80-85% is ususally when we start seeing overbooking being an issue on heavy days. I'm all for growth in OKC...but it has to be smart growth. Just throwing out a massive terminal complex will do nothing but bring massive financial hardship to the airlines, the city and the county. Please research the nightmare Pittsburgh is going through right now. About 15 years ago they spent hundreds of millions on one of the best (my opinion) hub airport terminals in the nation for USAir/US Airways. They utilized 4 concourses that provided one of the best experiences for the passengers, the Air Mall did a lot to help with it. However, US Airways ran into cash flow problems - like the rest of the industry - and downsized. They use one concourse now and half of the airport is moth balled. What is worse...without the PFCs coming in with the higher traffic numbers, the airport authority is having problems paying the bills on all that borrowed money. Is that what you want for OKC?

[Kerry]

I just took a look at the Pittsburgh airport site and they have a headline items that says USAir handled 8+ million passengers in 2000. That was 6 years ago so I looked at last years total and it was only 6.2 million for all airlines. That is a significant drop in just 5 years. In fact their current 6.2 million is the lowest total in over 25 years. In the late 90's they were doing 20+ million. ouch!