OKC Light Rail System?

[BoulderSooner]

just a note that there is a place for Light Rail and Commuter Rail in the OKC metro area ...

Denver is building 4 commuter rail lines in the next few years

the Gold line which is 11.2 miles .. has 8 stops and takes 25 min for the trip end to end

the East Line runs Downtown to DIA 22.8 miles 7 stops 35 min end to end ..

also the Northwest Rail line runs to Boulder/Longmont will be 41 miles and will run 61 min end to end ..

the North Metro Line will run from denver north 18.5 miles ..

[BoulderSooner]

I remember when the streetcar first came out, people were wondering why anyone would do a downtown circulator (of sorts). How were people going to get down there to begin with? I would always suggest to take it from the other side: If we were to have rail from Edmond all the way to Norman and El Reno to MWC connecting at the Santa Fe Train Station, how would people get around once they got downtown? I think the streetcar is a great start to a solid transit system and with improved bus routes and commuter rail from the aforementioned areas, we could have something great in the next 15 years or so.

Conservatively speaking, what kind of timeline are we talking about for all these forms of transit? When will we see increased bus ridership, movement to purchase ROW for commuter rail, etc? I know the Adventure district and MWC has been talked about for a couple of years now. Theoretically, how long until we can see that moving forward?

much of this ? will be answered in the next few years as the RTA gets formed (or doesn't) then a RTD gets established and we have a transit tax vote ..

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm at fault. I assumed all of you "could keep up". And, I know, I over-shot some of you... So, The big picture is this: Before you spend 'real money' like 10's ofmillions of dollars on an "average product" that might have "some ridership", you may want to re-think this ACOG.

Warreng88...you missed the first point, you got caught up on the "paycheck" joke and it "threw" you. This is what we call "staying on point".

This entire dialogue is about Ridership. If the Finanacial Responsiblities are not looked at "UP-Front", then you may have a kinda neat train that runs from Norman to Edmond, but not just a real big HIT, w/ the consumers. You will have spent 10's of Millions of Dollars for an average product that "doesn't" connect w/ the consumers, thus they don't buy a ticket and ride the Diesel Train. And it won't even be open for business unitl 10 years. ...that is a long way to wait for an average product.

That must of been a joke that didn't go your way, because I certainly didn't get, and it didn't seem like it was pushed to be so.

[warreng88]

just a note that there is a place for Light Rail and Commuter Rail in the OKC metro area ...

Denver is building 4 commuter rail lines in the next few years

the Gold line which is 11.2 miles .. has 8 stops and takes 25 min for the trip end to end

the East Line runs Downtown to DIA 22.8 miles 7 stops 35 min end to end ..

also the Northwest Rail line runs to Boulder/Longmont will be 41 miles and will run 61 min end to end ..

the North Metro Line will run from denver north 18.5 miles ..

I didn't realize how dense Denver was until I looked it up. It is about the size of OKC area (not the whole metro) but on only 150 square miles versus 600+.

[warreng88]

That must of been a joke that didn't go your way, because I certainly didn't get, and it didn't seem like it was pushed to be so.

Thank you. I am glad I wasn't the only one who didn't get it.

In the words of Michael Scott: "I love inside jokes. I'd love to be a part of one some day..."

[warreng88]

much of this ? will be answered in the next few years as the RTA gets formed (or doesn't) then a RTD gets established and we have a transit tax vote ..

Will we possibly be looking at a county-wide tax for commuter rail to cover ourselves and the suburbs then look at more localized taxes (MAPS 4) to expand the more central aspects of transit?

[BoulderSooner]

I didn't realize how dense Denver was until I looked it up. It is about the size of OKC area (not the whole metro) but on only 150 square miles versus 600+.

the commuter rail goes way way outside of denver .. the line to longmont is 41 miles long

[Geographer]

I'm at fault. I assumed all of you "could keep up". And, I know, I over-shot some of you... So, The big picture is this: Before you spend 'real money' like 10's ofmillions of dollars on an "average product" that might have "some ridership", you may want to re-think this ACOG.

Warreng88...you missed the first point, you got caught up on the "paycheck" joke and it "threw" you. This is what we call "staying on point".

This entire dialogue is about Ridership. If the Finanacial Responsiblities are not looked at "UP-Front", then you may have a kinda neat train that runs from Norman to Edmond, but not just a real big HIT, w/ the consumers. You will have spent 10's of Millions of Dollars for an average product that "doesn't" connect w/ the consumers, thus they don't buy a ticket and ride the Diesel Train. And it won't even be open for business unitl 10 years. ...that is a long way to wait for an average product.

I cannot tell you how many times I have had conversations with friends in Norman about how we wish we could hop on rail to go to downtown OKC and back.

College students would absolutely flock to this type of thing all the time.....along with most people. Ridership wouldn't be an issue.

[Just the facts]

Why use 'old' technology? Because it is a prove technology that we know works, is cost-effective to operate, has many suppliers, lends itself to cross-application, is easily scalable, has lots of supporting data demonstrating TOD and related development, is fast and reliable, and has a known cost structure - and if things don't work out, there are hundreds of systems around the world we can sell our stuff to on the secondary market. What more reasons do we need?

[OKVision4U]

I cannot tell you how many times I have had conversations with friends in Norman about how we wish we could hop on rail to go to downtown OKC and back.

College students would absolutely flock to this type of thing all the time.....along with most people. Ridership wouldn't be an issue.

you will get your chance to ride it from Norman, but it will be in a minimum of 10+ years, per ACOG.

[Just the facts]

you will get your chance to ride it from Norman, but it will be in a minimum of 10+ years, per ACOG.

Is it your supposition that maglev could be built faster than commuter rail?

As for the Orlando maglev guy - he sounds a lot like this guy...



http://www.businessinsider.com/orlan...-train-2012-12

In June, Beth Kassab of the Orlando Sentinel article argued the hidden costs of the train include the donation of valuable right-of-way to AMT. She also pointed out Morris has received $20 million federal funding for maglev projects in Florida's Volusia County and at Old Dominion University in Virginia, neither of which came to fruition.

As of 2007, Old Dominion was still working on its train, but without the participation of AMT. According to the Student Voice, the university's newspaper, "Financial and technical difficulties arose. The company had a hard time financing the project...The Maglev currently belongs to the University and is being considered a research project."

Regarding the Volusia project, Morris said, "it was an embryonic test track" that "did everything it was supposed to do, and it was a success."

[venture]

Since some get confused on the whole light rail vs. commuter rail...here is a good write up of how to tell the two apart: Comparison of 'Rail' transit modes

My belief is our first step is obviously commuter rail. It is something that can be done now and we can work with BNSF to implement it on their lines. They have the experience operating a line for the Metra in Chicago and could easily bring that here. JTF has put together a good map of where to go, I also did a Google Maps version over existing lines on where a network could run. Get that up and going first and then start looking at implementing Light Rail with in the OKC city limits.

Since Light Rail would require a separate build out of new lines regardless, we should direct it to areas of town that don't have existing rail lines to work with. This is going to be anywhere North of I-40 and west of I-35.

[Just the facts]

The thing with any mass transit system is it has to go from an area of density to another area of density and OKC doesn't have a lot of those areas. You can't just run a light rail track down Classen and NW Exp and expect people to go ride it just because it is there. All riders on mass transit need to be pedestrians at both ends which means both ends need to be walkable.

[OKVision4U]

Is it your supposition that maglev could be built faster than commuter rail?

As for the Orlando maglev guy - he sounds a lot like this guy...



Orlando Building Mag-Lev Train - Business Insider

I would be ok with a commuter rail that is ready in 2 years..and runs for 10 /15 years. Then Phase in the LIght Rail beginning in 8 - 10 years. But, the ACOG received their data from USR and their estimated date for Commuter Rail being Up-An-Running, was 10 years if you started today.

This is why my position is "if we a having to wait, so long for a commuter rail in OKC, then let's get started on the Light Rail.

This project, OKC Metro Rail will take a long-time even if (everyone agrees w/ zero issues). 10 + years is a very probable timeline.

[Just the facts]

So I ask again - do you think maglev can be up and running faster than commuter rail?

[CaptDave]

The Heartland Flyer would have significantly higher ridership numbers if it traveled to downtown Dallas rather than downtown Fort Worth. Dallas is much bigger and its DART light rail can get you to far more points of interest much quicker....

As it is now driving Dallas is much faster and comes with far more flexibility.

Agree with this one. There really isn't much reason to not continue to Dallas Union Station on the TRE right of way unless it is a matter of refueling the locomotives and servicing facilities for the coaches..

[OKVision4U]

The thing with any mass transit system is it has to go from an area of density to another area of density and OKC doesn't have a lot of those areas. You can't just run a light rail track down Classen and NW Exp and expect people to go ride it just because it is there. All riders on mass transit need to be pedestrians at both ends which means both ends need to be walkable.

o

Absolutely. Norman / Moore / OKC / North OKC / Edmond. Sure, light rail will need it's own area of function.

Second Line... Yukon / Mustang / OKC / MWC / Choctaw area.

[BoulderSooner]

The thing with any mass transit system is it has to go from an area of density to another area of density and OKC doesn't have a lot of those areas. You can't just run a light rail track down Classen and NW Exp and expect people to go ride it just because it is there. All riders on mass transit need to be pedestrians at both ends which means both ends need to be walkable.

that is why you put park and ride stations on the end of the lines .. (and smaller lots in the middle of the lines) ...

look at the RTD-dener route maps .. .. basically ever line (light rail and commuter rail) ends with a park and ride

RTD

[OKVision4U]

So I ask again - do you think maglev can be up and running faster than commuter rail?

I think you could have a North line of 10 miles & South LIne 10 miles working simultaneously. 5th - 7th years w/ the second 10 mile segment in 7th - 10th years.

It won't happen if we don't get started.

[Just the facts]

Most of those are on the commuter rail plan. Are you suggesting it would be faster and cost less to build maglev to Mustang than it would to improve the existing rail line to Mustang and put a commuter train on it?

[Just the facts]

that is why you put park and ride stations on the end of the lines .. (and smaller lots in the middle of the lines) ...

look at the RTD-dener route maps .. .. basically ever line (light rail and commuter rail) ends with a park and ride

RTD

It is increasingly shown that park and ride lots are only causing sprawl to spread faster. We are trying to solve the problems of sprawl, not make it spread faster. If people already choose to live 20 miles from work won't they eventually decide they can live 20 miles from the park and ride lot. All of the people on Georgia 400 north of the MARTA North Springs station did exactly that.

Now that is not to say that a mixed-use transit station couldn't also have a large parking garage for those who want to live a long ways away and drive.

If you are going to build something - build something that can generate revenue and ridership, not a parking lot in isolation.

[OKVision4U]

Most of those are on the commuter rail plan. Are you suggesting it would be faster and cost less to build maglev to Mustang than it would to improve the existing rail line to Mustang and put a commuter train on it?

I did not say it would be Less expensive. But the timeline for commuter is at 10 + years. The timeline for the maglev line to Norman to Edmond would be somewhat equal in time.

[Just the facts]

I did not say it would be Less expensive. But the timeline for commuter is at 10 + years. The timeline for the maglev line to Norman to Edmond would be somewhat equal in time.

And what do you base that on? Plus, using the technology you quoted we would have a system with a top speed of 50 mph vs 'old' technology with a top speed of 120mph (although most likely topping out at 79mph). Would you rather go from Norman to downtown OKC at 50 mph or 79 mph?

[BoulderSooner]

Now that is not to say that a mixed-use transit station couldn't also have a large parking garage for those who want to live a long ways away and drive.

If you are going to build something - build something that can generate revenue and ridership, not a parking lot in isolation.

agree with some of your post. you would try to have as much TOD as possible ... however early on parking is very important to build ridership and to reduce traffic

[OKVision4U]

And what do you base that on? Plus, using the technology you quoted we would have a system with a top speed of 50 mph vs 'old' technology with a top speed of 120mph (although most likely topping out at 79mph). Would you rather go from Norman to downtown OKC at 50 mph or 79 mph?

1. I base that on Engineering / Design / Contracting / Contruction / ( typical construction cycle). Now, I think the question you need to ask is this "what is the speed rating that this Light Rail is approved for?" This could be placed in the Highest Speed Rating ( Flat land & no curves...straight from Norman to Edmond.).
2. The technology MAGLEV produces speeds over 300 mph. We may only want to authorize speeds to 150 pmh.
3. No, Orlando is using this technology, but does not need the High Speed Rating w/ curves / etc. , thus only having a 50 mph. rating.