OKC Light Rail System?

[Just the facts]

People do use Amtrak and they run commuter service in multiple cities around the US, however, OKC is not looking for Amtrak to run the system ACOG is working on.

[Just the facts]

JTF... the Orlando ( Orlando / Convention Area / Aiport / Disney ) IS MagLev Technology... they will only travel at speed up to 50 mph. (yes, they are faster than that, but that is not what Orlando wants this line to provide in this layout). ...and yes, it is Back In Play for implementation.

If a private company wants to build it more power to them.

[OKVision4U]

Yeah. The experience with running portion of the Metra I think is valuable to get the service launched sooner rather than later.



I think it'll come down to acquisition costs and also the requirements set by the FRA to permit them on our freight lines. I think the DMU option though as it'll probably be much more efficient than the Metra-style commuter rail since ridership numbers won't be all that great here. it would also allow for quicker trip times since they should be able to get up to speed a bit easier.

Overall I just hope this something they don't try to punt 10-15 years down the road.

The one thing that the ACOG is NOT telling you, is that if they started Today - They are looking at 10 years before the first Big Diesel Train is on the track. This is a Commuter Rail ( They use this phrase to seperate it from the standard Freight Rail. This means OKC Metro ACOG is planning on spending millions of dollars, using old / out dated technology AMTRAK TRAINS, and then open for business 10 years from now? ....this is what they say will work?

By that time, Texas will have other LIGHT RAIL in place, and OKC will be behind....again.

[betts]

The advantage to using heavy commuter rail is that you can share the route with, for instance, the Santa Fe. Commuter rail could run from, for example, 6 am to midnight and then the line could be used by the Santa Fe through the night. They might be willing to trade some of their right of way for this. That might be the cheapest way to get rails in the ground, and I don't think light rail has enough advantages over heavy rail to not have either as an option and go with the most practical and cost-effective.

[OKVision4U]

They use of Amtrak trains for commuter rail in the northern cities, rust belt cities. They are already accustomed to using the trains. Southern Cities / West Coast Cities are not using the AMTRAK trains for commmute. Houston Texas is using LIght Rail now, and expanding it.

JTF ...what type of Engine is the ACOG moving forward with? .... the Large Diesel Engine AMTRAK Type...yes.

The presentations I viewed were of this type ( that is what M. Hutch was recommending & they accepted). They call it "commuter rail", but that is just a phrase to make it sound light.

[betts]

Commuter rail is rail for commuters. I'm not sure of the advantages of light rail versus heavy. I think which type we use depends on practicality and cost.

[OKVision4U]

The advantage to using heavy commuter rail is that you can share the route with, for instance, the Santa Fe. Commuter rail could run from, for example, 6 am to midnight and then the line could be used by the Santa Fe through the night. They might be willing to trade some of their right of way for this. That might be the cheapest way to get rails in the ground, and I don't think light rail has enough advantages over heavy rail to not have either as an option and go with the most practical and cost-effective.

If we have to wait 10 years before they are "open for business", then why would consumers want just the "cheapest"? Consumers are not asking for cheap. Cost Effective, then why woudld you pay for this twice? ...Heavy rail for 10 - 20 years, then phasing in the light rail and having to budget "again", for that? ...cheap is an answer, but not the BEST answer.

Why don't OKIE people, me included, use AMTRAK now? ...please answer that. This is cheap now, and we don't use it. Too many stops, takes 4 hours to get to Dallas now.

The advantage is the same argument that we had at the beginnng of MAPS in 92'. Going "cheap" is not the way to attract people. But, if you offer them a superior product, they will support it.

[NWOKCGuy]

I think it has more to do with there only being one return trip that leaves Fort Worth after 5 and gets into OKC after 9.

[Just the facts]

JTF ...what type of Engine is the ACOG moving forward with? .... the Large Diesel Engine AMTRAK Type...yes.

Modern commuter rail engines burn diesel, but they do it to generate electricity which powers the electric motor - which in turn moves the train.

[OKVision4U]

Modern commuter rail engines burn diesel, but they do it to generate electricity which powers the electric motor - which in turn moves the train.

you could have just said yes. lol.

Yes, it is the Diesel Engine. They are offering this because AMTRAK already has these "in-stock". ??? Old technology is ALWAYS in stock, like buggy whips.

[OKVision4U]

I think it has more to do with there only being one return trip that leaves Fort Worth after 5 and gets into OKC after 9.

So what you are saying is "if we had more Diesel engines running up & down the tracks from To Dallas / Back home, then ridership would increase"? ...It would still be 4 hours to get to Dallas and 4 hours to get back to OKC? .... I can drive it in 3 hours, and still stop at In-n-Out burger and get a Double Double.

Really, why don't we just "fall in love" with AMTRAK ? ...please answer that one.

[Just the facts]

you could have just said yes. lol.

Yes, it is the Diesel Engine. They are offering this because AMTRAK already has these "in-stock". ??? Old technology is ALWAYS in stock, like buggy whips.

Where do you think the electricity is coming from to power maglev? Here in central Florida we have a coal fire power plant that heats water into a steam, which turns a steam turbine, to produce electricity. New technology indeed.

[Just the facts]

Quick question - who besides OKvision4U thinks Amtrak will be involved in anyway with commuter rail in OKC?

[BoulderSooner]

The one thing that the ACOG is NOT telling you, is that if they started Today - They are looking at 10 years before the first Big Diesel Train is on the track. This is a Commuter Rail ( They use this phrase to seperate it from the standard Freight Rail. This means OKC Metro ACOG is planning on spending millions of dollars, using old / out dated technology AMTRAK TRAINS, and then open for business 10 years from now? ....this is what they say will work?

By that time, Texas will have other LIGHT RAIL in place, and OKC will be behind....again.

this is not a true .

just fyi http://www.bombardier.com/en/transpo...ple-units.html

[OKVision4U]

this is not a true .

just fyi Diesel Multiple Units - Regional Trains - Bombardier Transportation

...what part? ...please clarify.

The 10 year plan before trains run... yes, that is true ( ACOG presentation timeline ). Buying Big Diesel Engines to pull it , yes that is. ( ACOG Presentation ; Jan 2013 , M. Hutchison). Using exsiting Heavy Rail lines.... Yes, that is true. Spending Millions of dollars and using outdated technology? ... You can dress it up how you like to, but it's still a dog.

[Plutonic Panda]

Just putting in my already stated opinion. I would prefer a light-rail built asap. If a 1.2 billion dollar proposal to build a light-rail here in metro, I'd support it, as long as the routes made sense.

[Plutonic Panda]

After MAPS 3, I would be shy about supporting that expensive of a project without the route being proposed first. Pay for the study upfront, then let us know what/where we are voting on. I think that was a major weakness with this project and very nearly created a problem for the whole MAPS brand. I hope that's not something that is repeated.

That is what I mean. As long as we had a strategic route made by professionals and city planners, not structural engineers, I would support it.

[venture]

Quick question - who besides OKvision4U thinks Amtrak will be involved in anyway with commuter rail in OKC?

I'm still trying to figure out why this guy is going back 2-3 months to pull things to quote and respond to when the conversation has already progressed well beyond those statements.

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm still trying to figure out why this guy is going back 2-3 months to pull things to quote and respond to when the conversation has already progressed well beyond those statements.

I'm trying to decide wether or not we have a possible troll. . . He has made some few great posts and I agree with him on the light-rail. The part about him recommending financial responsibility to another poster back in the StreetCar thread has me wondering.

[venture]

So what you are saying is "if we had more Diesel engines running up & down the tracks from To Dallas / Back home, then ridership would increase"? ...It would still be 4 hours to get to Dallas and 4 hours to get back to OKC? .... I can drive it in 3 hours, and still stop at In-n-Out burger and get a Double Double.

Really, why don't we just "fall in love" with AMTRAK ? ...please answer that one.

Theoretically if you bump OKC - Fort Worth up to 4 daily trains you are going to eliminate the stops on most of them. At that point you are looking at making it a commute option between the two cities. So lets say you have the last stop in Norman and the train runs nonstop until Gainesville or even just Fort Worth for that matter. You are cutting out a lot of down time.

The biggest hole though in the network is connecting it north to Kansas so you can get to the Midwest.

[warreng88]

The part about him recommending financial responsibility to another poster back in the StreetCar thread has me wondering.

Yeah, that was in reference to me and me saying I would be willing to bet my next paycheck that Orlando has more visitors than OKC. I am done responding to him/her since it is like arguing with a kid who wants to outside to play in the snow, only it is 100° out in July and he/she doesn't understand why there is no snow on the ground.

[Plutonic Panda]

Yeah, that was in reference to me and me saying I would be willing to bet my next paycheck that Orlando has more visitors than OKC. I am done responding to him/her since it is like arguing with a kid who wants to outside to play in the snow, only it is 100° out in July and he/she doesn't understand why there is no snow on the ground.

Yeah lol, I agree with you that there needs to be a smart and balanced approach coupled with being financially responsible. I would love a light-rail here, but I do now think a commuter rail would have to implemented first.

[ou48A]

The Heartland Flyer would have significantly higher ridership numbers if it traveled to downtown Dallas rather than downtown Fort Worth. Dallas is much bigger and its DART light rail can get you to far more points of interest much quicker....

As it is now driving Dallas is much faster and comes with far more flexibility.

[OKVision4U]

Yeah, that was in reference to me and me saying I would be willing to bet my next paycheck that Orlando has more visitors than OKC. I am done responding to him/her since it is like arguing with a kid who wants to outside to play in the snow, only it is 100° out in July and he/she doesn't understand why there is no snow on the ground.

I'm at fault. I assumed all of you "could keep up". And, I know, I over-shot some of you... So, The big picture is this: Before you spend 'real money' like 10's ofmillions of dollars on an "average product" that might have "some ridership", you may want to re-think this ACOG.

Warreng88...you missed the first point, you got caught up on the "paycheck" joke and it "threw" you. This is what we call "staying on point".

This entire dialogue is about Ridership. If the Finanacial Responsiblities are not looked at "UP-Front", then you may have a kinda neat train that runs from Norman to Edmond, but not just a real big HIT, w/ the consumers. You will have spent 10's of Millions of Dollars for an average product that "doesn't" connect w/ the consumers, thus they don't buy a ticket and ride the Diesel Train. And it won't even be open for business unitl 10 years. ...that is a long way to wait for an average product.

[warreng88]

I remember when the streetcar first came out, people were wondering why anyone would do a downtown circulator (of sorts). How were people going to get down there to begin with? I would always suggest to take it from the other side: If we were to have rail from Edmond all the way to Norman and El Reno to MWC connecting at the Santa Fe Train Station, how would people get around once they got downtown? I think the streetcar is a great start to a solid transit system and with improved bus routes and commuter rail from the aforementioned areas, we could have something great in the next 15 years or so.

Conservatively speaking, what kind of timeline are we talking about for all these forms of transit? When will we see increased bus ridership, movement to purchase ROW for commuter rail, etc? I know the Adventure district and MWC has been talked about for a couple of years now. Theoretically, how long until we can see that moving forward?