The Mentally Ill

[Just the facts]

We have to seriously start doing something with the mentally ill in this country. Letting them walk the streets doesn't seem to be working out for us. Never mind that most of our mass shooting, including the one yesterday in DC, are committed by the mentally ill, but go to any large city and see how many mentally ill people are sleeping in parks, urinate (or worse) on sidewalks, and generally harassing the public at-large. Then top that off with child molesters and others of like mind.

I don't know where we draw that line but if you are hearing voices in your head you should never set foot in public again. That should just be a given. The fact that someone like this would keep their 'secret' security clearance is in itself crazy.

News from The Associated Press

WASHINGTON (AP) -- U.S. law enforcement officials are telling The Associated Press that the Navy contractor identified as the gunman in the mass shootings at the Washington Navy Yard had been suffering a host of serious mental issues, including paranoia and a sleep disorder. He also had been hearing voices in his head, the officials said.

[bchris02]

The question is how do you define mentally ill? What state of mental handicap should be the line before locking people up? You mention "hearing voices" - that in its essence could compass much of the religious population. You are getting into a slippery-slope that could lead to a totalitarian police state when you start talking about doing something like this.

What needs to happen is psychiatric therapy needs to be cheaper and more available. $200 per session is ridiculous and a lot of insurance doesn't cover mental therapy. That needs to change.

[kevinpate]

fwiw, not all voices heard are screaming Lock and Load! and not all delusions are menacing.

[Martin]

done. -M

[Just the facts]

You mention "hearing voices" - that in its essence could compass much of the religious population. You are getting into a slippery-slope that could lead to a totalitarian police state when you start talking about doing something like this.

No doubt the risk for government abuse is there but we can't tolerate crazy people on the streets either. As for religious people hearing God - those people are crazy and should be put in a sanitarium for awhile. God is not talking to people. The bible is pretty clear on that subject. I know someone who says God talked to him in his closet. I told him God wasn't talking to him and he got a little angry about that. I suspect he is using steroids which would explain why he is hearing voices.

[Just the facts]

fwiw, not all voices heard are screaming Lock and Load! and not all delusions are menacing.

That is one of the problems though. With a mentally ill person the voices can go from 'pet cats' to 'kill cats' at any time. That is what makes them mentally unstable.

Several years ago I was eating lunch with my mother-in-law at a Taco Bell. While we were sitting there a woman sat down next to us with two trays of food. She put one in front of her and the other at the empty seat across from her, and then started having a conversation with no one. I don't remember what she started talking about but after a few minutes she started getting upset that the other 'person' wasn't eating their food. Then she started yelling at them saying that they always waste their food. That was are cue to leave - fast.

If this lady was hearing a voice asking her to order food, what other things could she hear? What if this voice told her it was safe to cross the street when it isn't? If nothing else, this voice was cost her money by ordering food it wasn't going to eat. Not only do we need to protect the public from the mentally ill, but we need to protect them from themselves.

[HangryHippo]

fwiw, not all voices heard are screaming Lock and Load! and not all delusions are menacing.

I can't think of a single delusion that I don't find menacing...

[RadicalModerate]

I know someone who says God talked to him in his closet. I told him God wasn't talking to him and he got a little angry about that. I suspect he is using steroids which would explain why he is hearing voices.

When my daughter was little, I remember taking her to a park in Midwest City. I was sitting on one of the benches watching her play on the playground equipment. An older lady sat down next to me and started talking about how someone or something was spying on her and trying to get to her through the electrical outlets in her house. (As a former bartender--cheap, unlicensed, psychiatrist--I listened politely, nodding from time to time. I'm not sure if I suggested buying some of those Child Safety outlet plugs or not).

Strangely, many, many years later, one of our next door neighbors apparently quit taking her meds and had a related breakdown. She cut all of the wires to her house as well as the lines for the AC units. She was wandering around, sharing the same sort of paranoia and, out of kindness and concern for her safety, we called the police. They seemed to handle the situation in an effective manner.

Is this a common delusion . . . ?
(Or are they really onto something?)
[insert Theremin arpeggio]

[bchris02]

This really seems like its getting into communist/totalitarian territory to want to lock up anybody with any sort of delision, which could go as far as to be anything other than what the government mandates people believe. Who do you want to lock up?

-Pentacostals/Assembly of God?
-Birthers?
-9/11 truthers?
-People who think Obama is a Muslim?
-People who deny global warming?
-People who cling to any conspiracy theory?
-People who believe homosexuality can be changed?
-Super-intelligent people who come across as eccentric and outside the norm?

Help should be much easier to get for people who need it. It's ridiculous how difficult and expensive it is to get quality counseling in this country. We can't lock people up who have shown no sign of being a danger to others or themselves. Where would we put everyone? We would have to initiate a massive prison-building program to build enough prisons to hold everyone outside the norm of what's considered rational thinking.

[RadicalModerate]

If members of the Westboro "Baptist" Hate Coven (a.k.a. Phelps' Folly) in Topeka were on your list, I would have to give a grudgingly qualified, "maybe" . . .

[Just the facts]

I'm not saying they should be locked in a prison like a criminal serving time for a crime. I am saying if they display signs of being mentally unstable they should be put in a mental hospital where they can get the care and safety they need. Letting the mentally ill sleeping in a park and eat out of the trash can is not helping them. Asking a crazy person to know what is their own best interest isn't possible - they don't know what is in their own best interest. That is what makes them dangerous. Of course, most crazy people don't even know they have a problem so it would take a 3rd party (family member, spouse, or judge) to make the decision to have them institutionalized.

And yes, we have closed the vast majority of out state mental hospitals due to budget cuts starting in the early '70s so we would have to build new facilities. All closing them in the first place seems to have done is create more problems than the budget concerns were.

[bchris02]

If members of the Westboro "Baptist" Hate Coven (a.k.a. Phelps' Folly) in Topeka were on your list, I would have to give a grudgingly, qualified, "maybe" . . .

I didn't think about them. I can see the merit in locking them up. I don't know how they've made it this long to be honest.

[RadicalModerate]

I didn't think about them. I can see the merit in locking them up. I don't know how they've made it this long to be honest.

Well . . . I guess we should both be expecting the arrival of the guys in the white jackets riding on those black helicopters.
Obviously we are both against Freedom of Speech and Assembly which means we are against The Constitution and we have to be crazy to be against The Constitution . . .

Hope we enjoy basket-weaving . . .

[SoonerDave]

No doubt the risk for government abuse is there but we can't tolerate crazy people on the streets either. As for religious people hearing God - those people are crazy and should be put in a sanitarium for awhile. God is not talking to people. The bible is pretty clear on that subject. I know someone who says God talked to him in his closet. I told him God wasn't talking to him and he got a little angry about that. I suspect he is using steroids which would explain why he is hearing voices.

Moses, Abraham, and Noah - among others - would stridently disagree with you.

[SoonerDave]

This really seems like its getting into communist/totalitarian territory to want to lock up anybody with any sort of delision, which could go as far as to be anything other than what the government mandates people believe. Who do you want to lock up?

-Pentacostals/Assembly of God?
-Birthers?
-9/11 truthers?
-People who think Obama is a Muslim?
-People who deny global warming?
-People who cling to any conspiracy theory?
-People who believe homosexuality can be changed?
-Super-intelligent people who come across as eccentric and outside the norm?

Help should be much easier to get for people who need it. It's ridiculous how difficult and expensive it is to get quality counseling in this country. We can't lock people up who have shown no sign of being a danger to others or themselves. Where would we put everyone? We would have to initiate a massive prison-building program to build enough prisons to hold everyone outside the norm of what's considered rational thinking.

The problem, however, is that certain elements of society have deemed themselves to be the perpetual and sole occupant of the Seat Of Socially Moral High Ground, and if you don't ascribe to their mantra, they think you should be locked up - because they think its for your own protection. It's all about the broader agenda of the government guiding and controlling what you should say, do, think, believe, and serving as the source of the benefits of society.

JTF's attitude on this is not unique. There are plenty of folks - some of whom have posted on this board - that have conveyed similar notions that anyone claiming communication with God should be locked up. Doesn't matter if that leadership has led to anything of beauty or to the benefit of anyone, the "communication" business alone is reason enough. Even the notion of religious affiliation is enough for some.

Yeah, that should scare the garbage out of you.

If you don't want to believe, fine. But when someone can say "you believe, therefore you should be locked up," without the slightest prior indication of committing a crime or even being the slightest danger to society, that's a problem. To heck with those things called rights or civil liberties.

[betts]

Mental health is expensive and I believe a lot of the same people who think the mentally ill should be locked up don't want to pay for their medical treatment. And then, where precisely do you draw the line on who should be locked up? Who makes those decisions? People who are hearing voices can be helped greatly with drug therapy, but how do you ensure they take their medications? And if you put them in a situation where they get their medications, some become amazingly functional and lucid, especially if they haven't been self medicating for years with drugs and alcohol.

I bet though, if we stopped locking people up for most victimless crimes, we'd have a lot more money to spend on treatment of the mentally ill. Trouble is, under those cirmstances, a bunch of people would rather have a tax cut. You frequently get what you pay for.

[bchris02]

The problem, however, is that certain elements of society have deemed themselves to be the perpetual and sole occupant of the Seat Of Socially Moral High Ground, and if you don't ascribe to their mantra, they think you should be locked up - because they think its for your own protection. It's all about the broader agenda of the government guiding and controlling what you should say, do, think, believe, and serving as the source of the benefits of society.

JTF's attitude on this is not unique. There are plenty of folks - some of whom have posted on this board - that have conveyed similar notions that anyone claiming communication with God should be locked up. Doesn't matter if that leadership has led to anything of beauty or to the benefit of anyone, the "communication" business alone is reason enough. Even the notion of religious affiliation is enough for some.

Yeah, that should scare the garbage out of you.

If you don't want to believe, fine. But when someone can say "you believe, therefore you should be locked up," without the slightest prior indication of committing a crime or even being the slightest danger to society, that's a problem. To heck with those things called rights or civil liberties.

This.

[jerrywall]

The goal of an sort of progressive/curative mental assistance will be someone's return to public/free life. So even when folks are committed, the hope is that they'll be free. However, I know from personal experience in friends that there are always relapses, and that medications quit working over time (they have to regularly change/rotate medications for folks with mental disorders).

If you look into the history of mental illness and treatment in this country, you can be shocked. Many folks blame financial causes as the reason that so many mentally ill people were put on the streets in the late 70's/early 80's but the fact of the matter is that the massive closing of facilities was driven by the revelations of abuse, and the type of black holes the asylum system was. People were committed against their will for all sorts of reasons, with no hope of ever seeing freedom again.

Residential mental health treatment (except in the rare/extreme cases) is meant to be transitory and temporary. The goal should ALWAYS be to get folks back to living independently and freely, whenever possible. Otherwise, why would someone seek help? The biggest thing that needs to change is the social stigma is getting mental health care. The overwhelming majority of folks will benefit from some sort of counselling or mental health services in their life, yet it's still seen/treated as something to be ashamed of. Look at this thread. Just seeing comments here, would you want to be open about asking for help or admitting a problem?

Lowering the costs, better support systems, better access, and social acceptance are all critical in making the needed changes.

[Just the facts]

Moses, Abraham, and Noah - among others - would stridently disagree with you.

Okay, let me rephrase that. God isn't talking to people now. When people say God spoke to them I suspect what they are really saying is that they had a enlightening revelation (an epiphany if you will) of what they should or should not be doing - as in - God told me to help the poor. Yes he did, in the Bible in multiple places. He didn't tell you in your living room during Final Jeopardy. It is entirely possible though that you had the epiphany about how to help the poor while watching Final Jeopardy in your living room.

[RadicalModerate]

Here is the intro to a "Devotional" that I put together back in February of '98.
I think it points up a facet of human behavior—related to the thread topic—that has changed a LOT since then.

(Please feel free to click the AudioVisual link, below, to provide background music by which to read what follows)

=====

Perception is NOT Reality . . .

“Hey Mr. C. . . . Check it out,” the student said as I climbed back into the truck.

I had brought the young man into Guthrie to put the finishing touches on a community service project on which we had been working. I left him in the company truck while I went into an office to pick up a key. He was referring to a man squatting next to a retaining wall near the place we had parked: A person having what seemed to be an animated conversation with someone . . . someone who wasn’t there.

“I’ve been watching him since you left,” my protégé commented, indicating with a roll of the eyes and a finger twirled at the temple that he sensed that there was something, shall we say . . . “out of the ordinary” about the person he had been observing.

Having previously encountered the individual whom he indicated, I responded, “Yeah . . . Well . . . He’s just a little more into his own universe that the rest of us.” I backed out of the parking space and we went on about our business . . . leaving the stranger still talking and gesturing to the companion or companions only he could see.

“Perception” . . . Our personal picture of the universe in which we exist . . . Is an interesting, wonderful and sometimes mysterious thing. Each of us has a unique vision of the world: How it is . . . How it could or should be.

No two perceptual frameworks are exactly the same. No single perceptual framework is perfect or complete. Of course, to a large extent, people do share a “common vision” regarding “common things.” Yet, perception in certain areas can be altered and hopefully enhanced through instruction, training and experience.

==========
(End of snippet, back in "real time") . . .

Today, many years later, you see people all over the place wandering or driving around, apparently having animated conversations with someone who isn't there. Except, in "reality" they are actually plugged into The Hive Mind via a virtual, electronic umbilical cord, on a hands-free cell phone . . . and we think nothing of it!

Perhaps "eccentric" is best defined by the circles in which one operates?


"There are none sane in this world except me and thee.
And sometimes I wonder about thee . . ."
~Antique, Eccentric, Quaker Saying

(call me crazy, but i think any band featuring a pedal steel guitar is cool. almost as cool as Gary Larson's "Far Side" cartoons.=)

[Just the facts]

I remember a comedian saying that thanks to Bluetooth headsets and gesture-operated tablets/smartphones it was getting harder to tell who the crazy people are.

[jerrywall]

I remember a comedian saying that thanks to Bluetooth headsets and gesture-operated tablets/smartphones it was getting harder to tell who the crazy people are.

Waaay, back in 99, I was on a business trip in DC. I was shopping for a new tie, while talking on hands free to my assistant who was prepping me for the meeting. At one point, and officer came up to me to see if I was alright. Evidently, the staff at the store had called the police for the "crazy" guy "talking to himself".

[Just the facts]

So let me ask this. While in Philadelphia last month we were sitting outside a museum. A guy matching every image of a homeless person comes along and starts 'boxing' a plant. After he threw a few punches at it he walked over and started 'bobbing and weaving' with a tree. He then went and started the 'rope and dope' act with a fire hydrant. If not for having my wife and kids with me it might have been funny - but I don't know if my 12 year old son looks like a crape myrtle to him or not, and we weren't the only people with kids in the area. Based solely on that action should this person be allowed to freely walk the streets of Center City Philadelphia or not. I vote for 'not'.

[SoonerDave]

Okay, let me rephrase that. God isn't talking to people now.

John 10:27: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."

When people say God spoke to them I suspect what they are really saying is that they had a enlightening revelation (an epiphany if you will) of what they should or should not be doing - as in - God told me to help the poor. Yes he did, in the Bible in multiple places. He didn't tell you in your living room during Final Jeopardy. It is entirely possible though that you had the epiphany about how to help the poor while watching Final Jeopardy in your living room.

Really? Of all the cries of arrogance I've heard tossed toward Christians for claiming a relationship with Christ and having at least some understanding of God's will, I have to say this is one of the biggest ones I've heard going the other way - that someone presumes to know that God could not possibly have spoken to someone at a given point in time.

You might read or at least research someone like Corrie Ten Boom, a Nazi holocaust survivor, who said she "never felt God's love" so deeply as when in a prison camp, embracing the hands of one of her captors, as she prayed for the ability to forgive him.

Nah, the Power of the Trebek is drastically more formidable, I guess.

[Just the facts]

Have you heard God speak to you SoonerDave?

You know - never mind. Just for the sake of the debate lets say that anyone hearing the voice of God spoken directly to them by God is not by definition crazy. What about people hearing other voices? Can we call them mentally ill? If I hear my dead Uncle Chester telling me to throw knives at kids in the park would that make me crazy (especially since I don't have a dead Uncle Chester)?