Big casino on Co-op site?

[Pete]

Good point. So I guess you get that demographic no matter what?

I'm not saying that, just wondering out loud if there are specific examples to the contrary.

[bradh]

I can't think of any.

[bchris02]

Can anybody give an example outside of Vegas, Atlantic City, etc where a casino has become the 'crown jewel' of a city?

The more I think about it, the more I oppose it. If its done, it has to be done outside the box. It can't be just a casino.

[BoulderSooner]

And of course, much of Vegas is incredibly trashy as well.


Can anyone offer an example of a casino/resort outside of Vegas (but in the U.S.) that would meet the standards we all want?

There are some in the Reno/Tahoe area but that is a very unique setting.

foxwoods .. the beau rivage in mississippi ... to name 2

[Larry OKC]

Actually the Chamber opposed the casino in NE OKC. They wanted to help a then struggling Remington Park who opposed the casino as well.

The Chamber itself was opposed (or neutral) but IIRC, the head of the Chamber spoke in favor of it (unofficially of course) and their press conference. SOmething about 400 or so new jobs to the area etc. As some have already noted, the same tribe that wanted to build the resort up by Frontier City & Remington Park was the same tribe that wanted to build one in Bricktown. The City wasn't just cool to the idea, they were downright frigid. The particular tribe is headquartered up near Tulsa and along with just about any other tribe, has no historical connection to the property. Add to the fact that now Gov. Fallin (then Representative) was strongly opposed to it as well. And the phrase "snowball's chance in Hell" comes to mind...

[CaptDave]

I don't think a casino on that site will ever happen, nor is it the best use. It is probably the easiest way to get it developed sooner rather than later though. Since we are talking about combining casino, hotel, resort, and professional sports Dover Downs came to mind. It is the only casino I know of with that combination. The horse track is on the inner perimeter of the Bubbacar track. But as others have mentioned, it isn't exactly a high quality, high brow venue - it is a bit cheesy to be honest.

[NWOKCGuy]

Isn't there one in Connecticut that's supposed be pretty nice? The Sun or something?

[Rover]

Isn't there one in Connecticut that's supposed be pretty nice? The Sun or something?

Mohegan Sun.

[Teo9969]

Can anybody give an example outside of Vegas, Atlantic City, etc where a casino has become the 'crown jewel' of a city?

The more I think about it, the more I oppose it. If its done, it has to be done outside the box. It can't be just a casino.

Pete said *a* crown jewel not *the* crown jewel. Massive difference.

The rest of the post is directed to everyone at large:

I wish everyone would quit thinking of this as an Indian Casino. It is indeed possible for the Chickasaws, though they are indeed Native American, to develop a world-class facility. The fact that they're talking about a stadium and a resort should be pretty indicative that they don't intend to plop down something like FireLake.

I don't think it would be too ludicrous to say that almost no one here would be unilaterally opposed to Caesar's Palace being dropped down on this site. If the project were done right...again, $300M - $600M *initial* investment, no reason this wouldn't be an absolute grand slam.

[Larry OKC]

Teo9969: I don't think it is a matter of a tribal casino (but would they construct something without a gaming component?), a Racino or an outside interest (like MGM etc), but it comes down to what the law allows among the different entities...I don't think that State law even allows for an outside interest??? I know there is a Hard Rock casino in Tulsa, but that is in name only. The Casino is a tribal one with the Hard Rock branding that they are licensing. I wouldn't be so sure that there wouldn't be just as much opposition to ANY gaming facility there. After all the City was opposed to one that was proposed there before...but that has been a few years ago now, Council members have changed and there may be a Mayoral change soon so who knows. As I mentioned to someone else in a PM, opinions can change and I don't see any problem with revisiting issues after a few years.

[Teo9969]

Teo9969: I don't think it is a matter of a tribal casino (but would they construct something without a gaming component?), a Racino or an outside interest (like MGM etc), but it comes down to what the law allows among the different entities...I don't think that State law even allows for an outside interest??? I know there is a Hard Rock casino in Tulsa, but that is in name only. The Casino is a tribal one with the Hard Rock branding that they are licensing. I wouldn't be so sure that there wouldn't be just as much opposition to ANY gaming facility there. After all the City was opposed to one that was proposed there before...but that has been a few years ago now, Council members have changed and there may be a Mayoral change soon so who knows. As I mentioned to someone else in a PM, opinions can change and I don't see any problem with revisiting issues after a few years.

I totally get that the legalities of it may be difficult. But I get the sense that many are simply relieved that the legalities make this unrealistic because they have a particularly negative projection of the end product. I think that's an inefficient and costly way to look at development.

[jerrywall]

I'd prefer a Caesar's Palace type drop in to a tribal owned Casino, not because of some preconceived notion about tribal casino's (I think the Hard Rock in Tulsa is amazing, for example) but because I'd rather a setup where the city and state would get tax dollars. I'm all for expanding legalized gambling for non tribal entities.

[Laramie]

I think the problem with an upscale site like that is that there is very little confidence the market would support it - hence a casino would pay the bill for it. We just need to legalize casino gambling completely for the large players if we have any hope of getting a high quality facility here. Not saying this site is where it should go, but overall.

If we're going to permit gambling then why not go all out. This situation of a certain level of gaming permits is a way of half-stepping. Go all out and then you will attract a Vegas-style plush state-of-the-art casino to downtown OKC. Much like we did with the retail I-40 Outlet Mall. The outlet malll between OKC-TUL on the Turnpike was never rebuilt following its destruction by tornado. Oklahoma City pulls traffic from I-35/I-40/I-44 and this mall did work.

A casino/hotel/soccer specific stadium could work on the old Cooperative Oil Mill site and replace that "clinking clanking collection of collagenous junk" with something glowing and appealing. This is not as far-fetched of an idea as it seems; as far as the impact it would have on neighboring casinos--it remains to be seen.

[adaniel]

I totally get that the legalities of it may be difficult. But I get the sense that many are simply relieved that the legalities make this unrealistic because they have a particularly negative projection of the end product. I think that's an inefficient and costly way to look at development.

This is far more complex than people simply hiding behind legalese. I really don’t care how elaborate the Chickasaws would build a planned casino. It would still be subject to tribal sovereignty, of course, assuming they could even get the land in trust. Meaning, it wouldn’t owe a dime in local taxes, would suck the life out of Bricktown, and can do whatever in term of design while giving the DDRC a big middle finger. These are all serious economic consequences for something that would provide questionable levels of benefit.

And I have to ask, why do people want a casino so bad? Do you see thriving cities like LA, NYC, Chicago, Seattle, Boston, etc. clamoring for casinos, especially in their CBDs? No. Gaming is a last ditch effort done by toilets like Detroit, Atlantic City, and Tunica MS aka the Ethiopia of America. These areas don’t even have tribal gaming, but that should tell you something about casinos and their impacts that I won’t rehash here. OK doesn't really have a choice due to the historical Indian allotments all over the state.

[BG918]

Why not just a continuation of the housing planned for C2S at this site, possibly mixed in with a soccer stadium development along the river? A casino isn't happening, not at this location. A bigger, nicer Riverwind? I could definitely see that. Something more resort-like what has been recently done at some of the casino hotels around the state,

[Teo9969]

This is far more complex than people simply hiding behind legalese. I really don’t care how elaborate the Chickasaws would build a planned casino. It would still be subject to tribal sovereignty, of course, assuming they could even get the land in trust. Meaning, it wouldn’t owe a dime in local taxes, would suck the life out of Bricktown, and can do whatever in term of design while giving the DDRC a big middle finger. These are all serious economic consequences for something that would provide questionable levels of benefit.

And I have to ask, why do people want a casino so bad? Do you see thriving cities like LA, NYC, Chicago, Seattle, Boston, etc. clamoring for casinos, especially in their CBDs? No. Gaming is a last ditch effort done by toilets like Detroit, Atlantic City, and Tunica MS aka the Ethiopia of America. These areas don’t even have tribal gaming, but that should tell you something about casinos and their impacts that I won’t rehash here. OK doesn't really have a choice due to the historical Indian allotments all over the state.

Where has it been established that this land has to go into a trust?

Nobody here is clamoring for a casino. We're simply stating that if done right, it could be a world-class development. A world-class development has exactly 0% chance of happening in the next probably 15 to 25 years if we don't take this one. That doesn't mean we have to take this one...but it means we should at least be open to the idea and see if we can make something work.

I personally feel both positively and negatively about a Casino downtown, or in OKC in general...so it's not like I'm dying for this thing to happen (and nobody, seriously nobody in this thread has expressed that kind of support). But I'm at least open to the idea if it's truly a world class facility. It seems the biggest problem with this for everyone in the thread that opposes it is based on a variety of unfounded assumptions.

[kevinpate]

The odds of getting the co-op land into trust status through the BIA are likely far more daunting against than the odds of the co-op land actually going for its asking price, and that's certainly no where near a sure bet on its own.

[Larry OKC]

Where has it been established that this land has to go into a trust?

Not sure if it is Federal or State law (or some combination), but a tribe can't just purchase land and it be "indian land" (for gaming purposes), it has to be put into trust, a process that can take years...add to that, the tribe seeking it often has to have some historical/territorial claim to the land in question (this is why you don't see a tribe building a casino in another tribes territory). Someone posted a map earlier in the thread to pretty much excludes any tribal casino in Oklahoma county and probably most of OKC limits (certainly anything approximating the downtown area). The exception to this is Remington Park racino, which has its own convoluted set of rules.

OSF Gaming Compliance Unit - Frequently Asked Questions

Under what authority are tribes permitted to conduct gaming in states?

In 1987, the Supreme Court in California v Cabazon Band of Mission Indians confirmed the authority of tribal governments to establish gaming operations independent of state regulation. The following year, Congress passed the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (IGRA), which provided a regulatory framework for Indian gaming. The IGRA offered states a voice in determining the scope and extent of tribal gaming by requiring Tribal-State compacts for Class III gaming. Tribal regulatory authority over Class II gaming was left to the tribes. The IGRA further provided for general regulatory oversight at the federal level and created the National Indian Gaming Commission (NIGC.)

Where can Indian gaming be conducted?
Under the federal law gambling can be conducted on "Indian land." Federal law defines "Indian land" as land that is either:

part of a federally recognized Indian reservation, or
off a reservation but held in trust for an Indian tribe by the federal government, or under the jurisdiction of an Indian governing body.
As this definition points out, it is not necessary for land to be actually part of a reservation for gambling to be conducted on it. In theory, an Indian tribe could buy land anywhere in a state and operate a casino on it, by having it declared Indian trust land by an Act of Congress, a court decision or settlement or through an application through the U.S. Department of the Interior.

Who regulates Indian Gaming?
Indian tribes are the primary regulators of Class II gaming. Regulation of Class III gaming may be addressed in Tribal-State compacts and varies by state with tribes remaining the primary regulator in most states. In Oklahoma, the tribes are the primary regulators of both Class II and Class III gaming. Both Class II and Class III gaming are subject to the provisions of the IGRA and oversight by the NIGC.

What types of gambling on Indian land does federal law regulate?
Federal law regulates two distinct types of gambling on Indian land. Under IGRA there are two major kinds of gambling, each with its own regulatory mechanism. (IGRA also recognizes a third form of Indian gaming, class I (meaning traditional tribal ceremonial games) but exempts it from both federal and state jurisdiction.)

Class II gambling is governed by a tribal ordinance that must meet federal guidelines and be approved by the National Indian Gaming Commission. IGRA defines Class II gaming as bingo; when played in the same location as bingo – pull tabs, lotto, punch boards, tip jars, instant bingo, other games similar to bingo; and non-house banked card games authorized or not explicitly prohibited by the state in which the tribal operation is located.

Class III gambling is conducted under a compact that each tribe negotiates with the government of the state in which it is located. The compacts can apply those state laws to class III gambling that each party believes necessary for regulation. Class III gaming authorized by the Oklahoma State-Tribal gaming compacts, consists of electronic amusement games, electronic bonanza style bingo games, electronic instant bingo, and non-house banked card games.

When the Tribe/State compacts were designed, it was presumed that the tribes would immediately go to the Class III (Vegas style) slots but since they would have to give a portion of the revenue to the State, they were reluctant to make the switch (you can still find a decent number of the bingo-based slot machines at many of the casinos I have been to including Newcastle, Riverwind and Remington Park). While the slot machines may look very similar, the bingo based ones will usually have a small video screen located somewhere on the face of the machine that shows the bingo payout...the slot machine display is displaying the equivalent of the bingo result.

As a result, the revenue projections by the State were lagging by multi-millions. Slowly, as the Tribes have made the switch, revenues are finally up to what the projections were (I think). But as evidenced by the mix of machines, the revenue finally catching up isn't due to all of the machines becoming Class III, but rather the increase in the number of tribal casinos and the expansion of existing ones over the years.

[yukong]

Where has it been established that this land has to go into a trust?

Federal Law establishes this. Indian Tribes cannot have casinos or smoke shops, etc on just any land. The land must be sovereign indian country (a reservation) or land held in trust by the Federal government for the benefit of the tribe. The feds will never approve trust land for one tribe to operate a casino on this or any other property in the central OKC area. That would open pandora's box and after the Chickasaws, the Choctaws would one. And then the Absentee Shawnees. Then the Creeks and the Cherokees. The Seminoles would want in too. And the Iowas, the Arapaho's, the Comanches...you get the point. Those tribes would oppose the Chickasaws being the favored ones. And don't forget the other massive opposition. Restaurant owners, club owners, etc. Those guys have to collect and pay sales taxes and alcohol beverage taxes. The tribes are exempt from those. And they would be able to undercut the locals. The odds of a casino of any type happening are so close to 0% that you cannot even see a glimmer of light between 1% and 0%.

And as to the suggestion above about just opening up gaming like in Nevada where we could have corporations operating casinos like in Vegas...that will never happen either. If that were floated, the Indian Tribes would fight like crazy to kill it. They don't want the competition. The tribes would spend millions lobbying against that plan. So many of our legislators come from areas covered by indian tribes, that they could not afford to anger the tribes. About 2/3s of Oklahoma is former tribal land. The legislators from those areas would never support a law that would possibly heavily damage the tribes in their jurisdiction.

[ChaseDweller]

Can anyone offer an example of a casino/resort outside of Vegas (but in the U.S.) that would meet the standards we all want?

https://www.rivercity.com/ River City is a beautiful hotel and casino in St. Louis. I was blown away by how nice it was - and it was packed on a Saturday night when I was there.

[LandRunOkie]

The implications of this development for the Thunder might be interesting. Clearly developers would be interested in a casino based to some degree on the NBA crowds. I'm only aware of casinos in Detroit, Memphis, and Miami. Certainly would tarnish the city's sold image as family oriented.

[betts]

New Orleans as well, I believe. And don't forget that one of the groups pitching a new arena in Seattle was the Muckleshoots, who wanted a casino-arena combo.

[kevinpate]

New Orleans as well, I believe. And don't forget that one of the groups pitching a new arena in Seattle was the Muckleshoots, who wanted a casino-arena combo.

Yes, Harrah's is not far from the city's very excellent aquarium IIRC.

[Dustin]

I would only support the idea of a hotel/casino/resort/spa if it was at the level of the Aria or the Cosmopolitan in Las Vegas.

[Pete]

Well, this is one of those instances where I was attempting to piece together different pieces of information and believe I was off base.

I was tipped off that something may be brewing at the co-op site because people in the know have seen some site plans of possible development site plans. I had also heard the Chickasaws may be involved.

But now I've heard from the Chickasaws who assure they are not considering a casino for this site. In fact, it doesn't look like they are involved here at all.


I try to be careful about this sort of thing but sometimes you have to put something out there to beat the bushes a bit. Most times it leads to more information that often substantiates but in the case, it seems I was misinterpreting various things I had heard.