Big casino on Co-op site?

[kevinpate]

This is the one spot I wouldn't be completely opposed to a casino going in as long as they adhear to the rules and regulations of the Bricktown Design Committee and there is a hotel, retail and restaurants attached to it. ...

Wait, I'm tired, confused, or both. I thought the BDC didn't have any sway over even Lower Bricktown. If that's right, how would they have any say about a property that is even further south of Lower BT?

FWIW, it would surprise me if there wasn't a major concerted effort by many of the current members of the Complainature at 23rd and Lincoln, along with the gripestituents, to oppose any attempt at turning the purchase of the co-op land into trust land via the BIA.

[bchris02]

A casino is something that sounds attractive upon first thought, and when I first saw this thread I thought this might be a good idea. However, on second thought I oppose it unless A) it can be taxed and B) it is extravagant, so much so as to be a destination. A run of the mill casino downtown will not project a good image and as adaniel says, will be a black hole in the district.

The Co-op needs to go, but I don't think this is the way. I wouldn't mind having a casino on the level of Winstar somewhere in the metro however.

[OKCisOK4me]

No to Indian casino. Mayor Mick has continually stated that no casino will be anywhere near downtown and that's fine by me. Problem with their asking price is I honestly don't think anyone will ever pay that. If someone does pay for the site, then I hope they sell parcels off to future investors that want to build on prime time land, but there will be a ton of work between now and then just to get there and there's no telling how long that time frame will be. I'm betting on 10+ years.

Also...is the producers co-op owned by OKC or a private individual?

Owned by Producers Cooperative Oil Mill.

[Teo9969]

I don't get the sense that the Chickasaws are thinking about plopping down a Firelake/Riverwind type concept in this spot.

I would not be the least bit surprised if heavy resistance to this idea is financed by other tribes and owners of casinos close to the metro. It would be a big blow to every casino on the outskirts if one popped up in the heart of downtown.

But seriously...if this is done right, there's no reason this idea couldn't be special. Casinos do exist around the world that are high-class and bring notoriety to their cities. There's even a city that is known almost exclusively for its casinos.

The question is are the Chickasaws ready to drop the $300M to $600M it will take to make everything come together to make it special, and is there going to be the ability for the Chickasaws and the City to work together to ensure that the vision for this development would be in line with both the present and future direction of downtown.

[Laramie]

If they are going to do a casino, they need to go big. Make it the premier casino/resort in the state. Make it something that people from surrounding states will come to OKC for rather than the bordertown casinos. Light it up at night, make it very attractive from I-40 for people passing through, but not tacky.

Personally, I don't care for casinos or horse racing tracks. They are here in Oklahoma, so why not Oklahoma City? Keep the money in our state instead of having these people venture out to places like Las Vegas, Gulfport, MI., and Atlantic City. We have a big casino called Winstar just north of the Oklahoma-Texas border and I drove through there recently and I couldn't believe the out-of-town license plates in the parking lot.

I saw two casinos in Kansas City and I couldn't believe the business they were doing.

Oklahoma City is becoming a mecca for new development; we need to capitalize on the out-of-state dollars and prepare in advance for growth. That will include more motels, hotels, police, fire, roads, streets, transportation and the like.

Those of us who have an interests in OKC, we need to know that the development is coming and get prepared.

[venture]

I wouldn't be opposed to a casino there, but I don't think it should be an indian casino. I would much rather see MGM Mirage or Caesars be allowed to come in a build notable facility instead of just another Riverwind.

Also I would be a little concerned about losing any of the rail lines there. The ability to utilize the tracks (fix them up if needed) to tie in commuter/regional rail into the Sante Fe Station should be part of the deal. Granted it isn't a necessity, but that rail line from the west along I-40 could have an easy turn off into that loop around the Co-Op that a new bridge could be put in to tie it into the line coming into the station. That would make it relatively easier for any train from El Reno/Yukon/W OKC.

[venture]

Gambling has done wonders for Detroit, New Orleans, Atlantic City, and Chicago, not to mention all the great walkability casinos are know for creating. This is exactly what downtown OKC needs.[/sarc]

Casinos - what you do when every other idea fails.

The Detroit casinos have done some good at revitalizing once dead neighborhoods in downtown, but their effects definitely aren't widespread. Can't comment on NOLA. AC has always been 2nd rate to Vegas. Chicago I can't think of any in the city...only one that comes to mind is out in Aurora which is pretty nice and Aurora is actually doing quite well.

If anything it would be part of the entertainment district to help it continue to grow. I know you scoff at the foot traffic, but putting one near Bricktown would probably create a good deal of additional revenue for businesses there.

Now to go with a new casino, I would push for an indoor water park/resort as well. While I would like Castaway Bay (Home)...I know Cedar Fair likely isn't going to come close to Oklahoma. So we are looking at probably a Great Wolf. Though it would be nice to get a more upscale one like some of these: The 15 Craziest Indoor Water Parks in the World | Complex

[GaryOKC6]

The Chickasaws actually have more money than the state of Oklahoma. They bought the Lone star race track between Dallas and Ft. Worth to hedge their bets in case Texas eventually passes gaming there. That sucking sound that we hear is millions of dollars being sucked from Texas to Oklahoma every week at Windstar Hotel/Casino on the border. They could build a resort hotel and find a way to bring gaming later if the really wanted to.

[bradh]

Selfishly, I want that land used for an MLS-class soccer facility. I know that viewpoint is probably not shared by a majority though.

venture79 brings up a good point in regards to the existing rail lines there as well

[BoulderSooner]

It would require the governed aproval Slim to no chance. Remember even though Okc chamber supported the ne Okc casino. The council opposed it

[Just the facts]

That sucking sound is money being sucked out of local economy. If you spend $1 in an Indian casino most of that dollar is lost to the local economy forever. This is the same song and dance a certain blue retailer promises but if it was true every town in Oklahoma would have so many tax dollars the state income tax would have vanished years ago because we couldn't spend it all. Anyone ever wonder why that never seems to actually work out?

[adaniel]

Selfishly, I want that land used for an MLS-class soccer facility. I know that viewpoint is probably not shared by a majority though.

Actually I think an MLS stadium or some sort of large sports facility is a very good use for the site. If the Chickasaws want to build a stadium on the land owned in fee of course then I say go for it.

I don't want to second-guess Pete but this whole casino scenario is very unlikely. Downtown interests would almost certainly oppose this due to the unfair taxation issue. Remington Park, and by extension the entire equestrian industry, would oppose it because it cuts into their cash cow at the Racino. The city has already gone on record in opposing any casino that requires tribal trust land. And the majority of tribes would fight tooth and nail to keep the Chickasaws from getting trust status inside the unassigned lands, which has never happened to my knowledge. All this is important because any sort of legal process would need support from these parties. Too many people with something to lose in order for this to work under current laws.

And the massive 800 lb gorilla screeching in the room. Anyone think Texas is going to remain gambling free forever?

Frankly, I think the promise of gambling our way to prosperity and jobs as one of the biggest farces to be perpetrated in economic circles. It is not something this city needs to pursue at all.

[BG918]

OKC is not in the Chickasaw Nation so how would a casino be built on land it doesn't control? That is why Riverwind is where it is, closest to OKC and high visibility along I-35. I would think the Chickasaw's would eventually make that more of a showcase casino, like what the Creeks and Cherokees have done in the Tulsa area (both of which are on Indian land, which surrounds Tulsa on all sides).

Chickasaw Nation


Oklahoma Indian Nations

[yukong]

As a general rule, Indian tribes cannot put land into trust that isn't connected to their reservations and or recognized tribal land. The Chickasaw Nation ends at the South Canadian River just north of the RiverWind Casino. It isn't impossible, but it is very difficult. And if their intent is to operate a casino on the property, it is doubtful they could ever get it put into trust. The federal government almost always denies those requests. In fact, I cannot find evidence that the feds have ever approved such. The operation at Remington Park is not trust land. Remington Park is owned by Global Gaming RP, LLC which is a subsidiary of Global Gaming Solutions, which is owned by the Chickasaw Nation. It officially isn't Indian land or property in the normal sense. The only reason there is a casino there was that in 2004 I believe, there was an election to change the law to allow gaming at 3 race tracks (Remington is only one left I think) and that it was limited to that location only. it was billed as a way to make money for schools. So it would most likely require a state question to get this done and approval by the feds that most likely wouldn't happen. Especially if there was any opposition. And there would be tons. If it were put into trust, then the city, county and state would not be able to tax any of the operation and I can assure you that many in each governmental entity would fight tooth and nail to prevent that from happening because of the tax situation. The county gets a lot of property tax on the land now. And more if it is developed. The County would fight losing that money. And the schools would fight it because it would come out of their appropriations. Local businesses, restaurants, clubs etc would oppose it because of the perceived unfair advantage it would give the tribe. I'm gonna say...this proposed deal will never happen. Too much opposition.

[KayneMo]

I'm not sure if it's a tax, but Oklahoma tribes do pay gaming fees to the state. The latest data I could find is from 2011; $122 million was paid to the state, the Chickasaw and Choctaw Nations being the biggest contributors.
I agree with bchris02 by going big and designing the casino to be a premier destination, but not tacky. I think it could be pretty feasible for Chickasaw Nation to buy the property and redeveloping it. The Choctaw Nation has spent $360 million on their resort in Durant ($60 million for the first phase, $300 million on an expansion), and are about to spend $275 million more on another expansion beginning this Fall. That's $635 million total, over half a BILLION dollars (mind-boggling for me!) invested into their resort in my small hometown.

[GaryOKC6]

It would require the governed aproval Slim to no chance. Remember even though Okc chamber supported the ne Okc casino. The council opposed it

Actually the Chamber opposed the casino in NE OKC. They wanted to help a then struggling Remington Park who opposed the casino as well.

[Stew]

Totally against it.

[kevinpate]

There's no scenario I can think of, while OK remains in its current gaming posture, that a significant gaming facility would be located in OKC. It doesn't make sense given the ease of travel to existing facilities like Riverwind & Newcastle to the south and Grand to the east. And let's face it, Winstar at Thackerville just isn't that far away, nor is hard Rock at the edge of Tulsa.

[ABryant]

I'm not sure this could work. Oklahoma City, The State of Oklahoma, and the Federal Government would all have to be on the same page. All the other tribes would be against the Chickasaws because of their own best interests. Hurts my brain to think about all this could work.

[catch22]

I just don't see how gaming would be politically feasible on this site.

We know two groups are looking at pro soccer, one of them potentially on the river. May be a partnership with one of the tribes to instead do a world class hotel and resort. True 5 star hotel, spas, pools, restaurants, etc.

But I just don't see gaming working out.

[venture]

I just don't see how gaming would be politically feasible on this site.

We know two groups are looking at pro soccer, one of them potentially on the river. May be a partnership with one of the tribes to instead do a world class hotel and resort. True 5 star hotel, spas, pools, restaurants, etc.

But I just don't see gaming working out.

I think the problem with an upscale site like that is that there is very little confidence the market would support it - hence a casino would pay the bill for it. We just need to legalize casino gambling completely for the large players if we have any hope of getting a high quality facility here. Not saying this site is where it should go, but overall.

[OKCRT]

I think the problem with an upscale site like that is that there is very little confidence the market would support it - hence a casino would pay the bill for it. We just need to legalize casino gambling completely for the large players if we have any hope of getting a high quality facility here. Not saying this site is where it should go, but overall.

That would be the perfect site for an upscale casino/Hotel. In fact, I can't think of a better site in OKC. If done right it would be a crown jewel for the downtown area. Right now people are taking their gambling money out of OKC for the most part.

[bradh]

No offense, but unless you're Vegas, which has world class golf, food, shows, and other entertainment venues to attract people, casinos just attract a trashy crowd, in my experience.

[Pete]

No offense, but unless you're Vegas, which has world class golf, food, shows, and other entertainment venues to attract people, casinos just attract a trashy crowd, in my experience.

And of course, much of Vegas is incredibly trashy as well.


Can anyone offer an example of a casino/resort outside of Vegas (but in the U.S.) that would meet the standards we all want?

There are some in the Reno/Tahoe area but that is a very unique setting.

[bradh]

Good point. So I guess you get that demographic no matter what?