What happened to NW OKC?

[Jim Kyle]

We bought our house in the Crestwood addition in late 2007 and even since then we have seen more young couples and other people buying houses in the area and fixing them up.

We bought into the Cleveland neighborhood in 1967 so that our three sons could go to good schools; one of the three had to repeat third grade because the school system could find no record that he had completed it (at Longfellow!) the previous year. Vince Gill grew up just a block north of us and I used to hear him practicing most every evening. Manny Cruz was a couple of blocks farther north, just off Venice. It was a great area, with great neighbors.

It remained a typical middle-class neighborhood through the 70s but began declining in the early 80s despite efforts of the Cleveland Neighborhood Association to keep it up. We sold out in 1982 and moved to what was then far NW OKC (near NW 122 and Council). What were the far outskirts of town 30 years ago is now reasonably packed in, and hasn't yet begun that spiral of decline.

Just a week or so ago, I drove through the old neighborhood for the first time in many years, and was heartened to see it apparently rising once again.

The same thing seems to be happening to Crestwood; I lived at NW 20 and May from 1946 until the early 50s, when I moved out of my parents' home into my own apartment. They left the house to my youngest son when they died, and he stayed there until 1999 -- watching the area decline. Now, however, it seems to be coming back.

I think there's hope for such areas. It just takes time and a few dedicated crusaders...

[warreng88]

We bought into the Cleveland neighborhood in 1967 so that our three sons could go to good schools; one of the three had to repeat third grade because the school system could find no record that he had completed it (at Longfellow!) the previous year. Vince Gill grew up just a block north of us and I used to hear him practicing most every evening. Manny Cruz was a couple of blocks farther north, just off Venice. It was a great area, with great neighbors.

It remained a typical middle-class neighborhood through the 70s but began declining in the early 80s despite efforts of the Cleveland Neighborhood Association to keep it up. We sold out in 1982 and moved to what was then far NW OKC (near NW 122 and Council). What were the far outskirts of town 30 years ago is now reasonably packed in, and hasn't yet begun that spiral of decline.

Just a week or so ago, I drove through the old neighborhood for the first time in many years, and was heartened to see it apparently rising once again.

The same thing seems to be happening to Crestwood; I lived at NW 20 and May from 1946 until the early 50s, when I moved out of my parents' home into my own apartment. They left the house to my youngest son when they died, and he stayed there until 1999 -- watching the area decline. Now, however, it seems to be coming back.

I think there's hope for such areas. It just takes time and a few dedicated crusaders...

Thanks for sharing your story with us Jim.

[adaniel]

There still is a really good stock of Midcentury homes in NW OKC, which have a lot of fans. So I think it is just a matter of people wanting to get organized and stand up for their communities instead of bailing out the second they can. I am actually quite excited to see what the Windsor District and Musgrave Pennington association will do in a few years. I think the can serve as a nice blueprint for what other aging suburban areas can do to reverse their fortunes.

On a related note, when I eventually buy a home in the next year or so, I will definitely be buying in an area with an HOA or some sort of neighborhood association. Everyone bags on them, but seeing how quick nice neighborhoods can turn to slum here, they are pretty much the best defense.

Hopefully this will not be the case. If OKC can continue to attract white collar jobs like DFW then I see the values increasing and people buying and investing in these neighborhoods keeping up the values for the area. OKC does tend to let things go, unlike DFW where they will just bulldoze and start over, lol.

Hate to break it to you, but there are plenty of places (Farmers Branch, Garland, and even my hometown of Plano) that are experiencing the same issues. Also, this is happening when OKC is by most measures thriving. It is really independent of economic conditions. If neighborhoods are not built in a sustainable manner, it will eventually fall no matter what.

[Mr. Cotter]

We bought into the Cleveland neighborhood in 1967 so that our three sons could go to good schools; one of the three had to repeat third grade because the school system could find no record that he had completed it (at Longfellow!) the previous year. Vince Gill grew up just a block north of us and I used to hear him practicing most every evening. Manny Cruz was a couple of blocks farther north, just off Venice. It was a great area, with great neighbors.

It remained a typical middle-class neighborhood through the 70s but began declining in the early 80s despite efforts of the Cleveland Neighborhood Association to keep it up. We sold out in 1982 and moved to what was then far NW OKC (near NW 122 and Council). What were the far outskirts of town 30 years ago is now reasonably packed in, and hasn't yet begun that spiral of decline.

Just a week or so ago, I drove through the old neighborhood for the first time in many years, and was heartened to see it apparently rising once again.

The same thing seems to be happening to Crestwood; I lived at NW 20 and May from 1946 until the early 50s, when I moved out of my parents' home into my own apartment. They left the house to my youngest son when they died, and he stayed there until 1999 -- watching the area decline. Now, however, it seems to be coming back.

I think there's hope for such areas. It just takes time and a few dedicated crusaders...

You should come back! I bought in Cleveland this year, and it's a really solid neighborhood. Crestwood is a few years behind, but it will get there soon enough.

[foodiefan]

I am actually quite excited to see what the Windsor District and Musgrave Pennington association will do in a few years. I think the can serve as a nice blueprint for what other aging suburban areas can do to reverse their fortunes.

I'm in the Windsor District, specifically Windsor Hills. While there are some "problem" houses, the majority of the homes are well-maintained, and we have an active neighborhood association. I'm encouraged by some of the younger people/families moving in. It's really a great area for those of us who still want a yard. . .15 minutes or so to most places, great diversity. Would love to see Windsor Hills Shopping Center "come back" with some neat places. . .there are some "anchors". . .Gophurm, B&B movie theater, Crest. I think it will happen. . .just hope I live long enough to see it!!

[Plutonic Panda]

Sprawl happened. When you keep building new and people think they want new and suburban living, people who can't afford the new move into the old. The process keeps occurring and maintenance isn't as good, because maintenance is expensive. We don't always budget for maintenance when we buy a house. Or an owner uses an older house as a rental property and doesn't maintain it as well as if he or she lived there.

Pockets like Crown Heights and Nichols Hills have never had that happen, but even places like Mesta Park and definitely Edgemere and Jefferson Park and Gatewood had that happen as well. Now that living closer in seems to be becoming more desirable again, and the architectural style of those areas is appreciated, renovation and renewal happens. Or, like is happening in SoSA, the less renovatable or less desirable are torn down to build new. I don't know if Bethany and the Village are close enough to city center to have that same cycle, but I hope so.

Love this. . . it's always marvelous to blame sprawl for problems. Never mind the people who choose not to mow and keep their yards up. Never mind a big part of the downtown renaissance being funded from the suburbs, lets blame it all on sprawl lol. . . I understand the basis of what you're saying, however, I think what happened to Bethany and The Village could've been prevented and can turn around. It is up to the people to want to make their town better just as people in Oklahoma City decided to pass MAPS and make OKC a better city.

[bradh]

You do have to put responsibility on the people as well. Why is it so hard to take care of your stuff?

[betts]

But sprawl is a significant part of the problem. When the fringes of a city are considered the most desirable, then prices drop in places people aren't as interested in living. And, as prices drop, people acquire properties to use as rentals. Landlords are rarely motivated to take optimal care of their properties as their primary interest is monetary. Tenants don't have pride of ownership. Homes get older and fall into more disrepair as anything older requires more upkeep. It's only when older areas become more interesting to live near, the architecture is interesting or the location is optimal that areas become resurgent.

[bradh]

That's true. I'm in an neighborhood that is just about in transition. Lot's of older (I say older, I mean my parents' age, 55+) folks who take great pride in everything, and have their houses paid off. We're fine here for now, but when they start bailing that's probably when stuff hits the fan. I try to stay involved, as catty as being on an HOA board can be as a 33 year old, but I feel it's only one way to slow the trend.

[JayhawkTransplant]

In my neighborhood, the vast majority of the code enforcement issues come from houses being occupied by tenants with a landlord living far away. Often times, having your yard guy now every other week will suffice in late August, but definitely not this year...

[Rom]

I think a lot can be put on the greed of the towns and developers. When you approve apartments for the tax revenue flees eventually come with the dog.
Old apartments are OL over NW OKC and Bethany and right now you see new apartments being built in Edmond and Deer Creek.

[bradh]

I think a lot can be put on the greed of the towns and developers. When you approve apartments for the tax revenue flees eventually come with the dog.
Old apartments are OL over NW OKC and Bethany and right now you see new apartments being built in Edmond and Deer Creek.

Check Rockwell & Memorial area...3 new complexes in one square mile

[Plutonic Panda]

Again, I think these homes and apartment complexes can be nice if they are kept up. If the people don't want to take pride in their community, then Edmond will end up just like Bethany is today.

[bluedogok]

One problem is the concentration of apartments in areas, when they start going downhill the slide is rapid. If they were more spread out they could probably sustain better values.

[rezman]

Me and the wife got out on the motor scooter for a little while on Sunday, and had the "opportunity" to drive NW 10th street from lake O east to Portland. It's been a while since I've been through that way, but BOY! ... what a toilet that section of town has become. I felt like I needed a shower after I got out of there.

[oki]

It has nothing to do with downtown and everything to do with demographics.

For sure.

Section 8 and cheap apartments/housing.
Poverty and all that can come with it.
Long-distance landlords.
Aging houses and suburban white flight.

[oki]

You do have to put responsibility on the people as well. Why is it so hard to take care of your stuff?

This is another part of the problem.

Recession, foreclosures, economic hard times... less money or incentive to maintain properties.

Homeownership is also a big deal. Homeowners want a nice neigbhorhood, not the slums. They want their kids in nice schools. People who are responsible enough to work, have a job, be able to afford a house, have kids, etc. want safe neighborhoods without the upkeep of extremely old cheaper houses. Cheap $50,000ish houses or cheap rental apartments/houses tend to mean rental or section 8 neighbors and bad schools.

I have little tolerance for being a homeowner and living near section 8, cheap apartments, etc. There are some apartments somewhat near me (there weren't when I bought the place!), but they are mostly upscale apartments near shops. I still don't like them. Most homeowners don't. Apartments mean more traffic, section 8, lower rents, noise, and are rarely good for property value.

Schools are why you find a lot of people moving to Edmond-- it's been this way for 20 years. Classen SAS is a great school, but it's in the hood, and it's a long commute.

Section 8, poverty, and similar nearby tend to make homeowners with pride want to move elsewhere. And most section 8 people don't have the money or motivation to fix up apartments/houses-- especially since they don't own the houses anyway. And no one who can afford to buy a house wants to live in the ghetto. If you live in the slums, you're concerned about your very safety-- not about how tall your lawn is or if your garden looks good.

Property value is a big motivation for people to maintain their properties. It's far more unlikely for someone with a $250,000 or $500,000 house to let their house fall into disrepair and look crappy. They have too much money on the line. If a person's house is only $25,000 or $50,000, there's a lot less incentive to maintain, upgrade, and repair the place since it's not worth much.

That's why you'll never see slums in the "good" parts of Edmond, OKC, Yukon, etc. The houses are worth $200,000 --- if a neighbor lets their house start looking run down, neighbors will complain quickly and loudly. You don't see that sort of pride among many neighbors in $50,000 houses. It just doesn't happen overall. People in poor areas have much more to worry about than lawns.

New houses nearby also helps appearance and property values. That alone has nearly doubled some Edmond property values over the last 20 years when parts of Edmond were farmland.

Other areas have flip flopped between being ghetto. In the, what, 70's, the Paseo was artsy and trendy. The 80s the Paseo was horrible. In the 90s, the Paseo was less bad. Now the Paseo is (yet again) up-and-coming and trying to be trendy and improve.

There are other areas that are "fine" but have ghettos nearby. I would say this applies to Paseo, Crown Heights, etc. and is a major reason why I would never live there. You either get old run down houses or fully renovated overpriced old houses. Old historic homes = maintenance nightmare. The schools out there are not good. Noise. Traffic. Cheap rental apartments nearby. Ghetto slums nearby. Plus, historic homes and the old neighborhoods just don't often have what today's homebuyers want: master bedroom downstairs with large walk-in closet and large master bathroom, at least a few other bathrooms in the house, nice newer kitchen, 2-3 car attached garage, etc. The houses I saw in Edgemere and Crown Heights had 1-2 bathrooms per house with no master bathroom, plus small master bedrooms, detached 1 car garage if any garage at all, old windows, not enough closet space, and so forth. I have no intention of buying and maintaining a very old home and have to share 1.5 old bathrooms with multiple kids, have no good nearby schools, have to park in a detached garage (what's the point), and ghettos nearby. Yuck.

[oki]

I'll say that for someone who prefers urban living, IMO the death of suburbs is/was highly exaggerated. Lots of people simply don't care for dense urban environments. More importantly, cities' troubled urban school districts will always give families pause. Towns that offer good schools, solid (but not always cheap) real estate, a diverse tax base, some culture and arts, and at least some measure of white collar employment with simple access to other job centers will always be in demand. In this area, I can really only think of Norman, and to a lesser extent Edmond, that meet these descriptions. There are plenty of homes in both towns built in the 1960-1985 time period that look great.

I agree.

People forget that the suburbs and what it offers are what draw people to smaller cities like OKC.

Larger, newer houses with lower costs of living in the suburbs....

Good/decent safe schools...

Parks and family friendly safe areas...

Shops, malls, restaurants, school, work, etc. all within 5 minutes of your house.

The suburbs are quiet, family friendly, convenient, usually newer homes with adequate safe schools and large homes.

I certainly didn't move south to Oklahoma to deal with an urban h*ll of traffic, tiny overpriced apartments/condos, parking nightmares, old small houses, noise, and having to deal with public transportation or walking everywhere I go daily.

Seriously, if I wanted Central Park and to live downtown in some tiny overpriced urban loft apartment and walk to get groceries at Whole Foods everyday, then ride my bike to some overly hip trendy restaurant, I would be living in NYC now, not OKC.

[ljbab728]

Obviously nobody will change your mind about what you want. It is also obvious that many people are now trending away from your ideal and embracing an urban lifestyle. Your suggestion that OKC's suburbs are what is attracting people here is only true for some people and the continuing development of living options in and near downtown are extremely attractive for large numbers. Of course the suburbs are not going away but neither is the trend towards urban living.

[andrew3077]

Hopefully, the choice isn't between great suburbs OR a vibrant, urban downtown, but I'm pretty sure the goal is to have both great suburbs AND a vibrant urban downtown.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Classen SAS is not "in the hood". Gatewood UCD is a wonderful neighborhood with a great amenity in the Plaza District. I'm raising my family here.

[ljbab728]

Schools are why you find a lot of people moving to Edmond-- it's been this way for 20 years. Classen SAS is a great school, but it's in the hood, and it's a long commute.

It's very apparent that in spite of the negative publicity of the OKCPS, there is little impact on enrollment. People are definitely moving into the district in large numbers.

School district boasts largest enrollment since late '70s | News OK

More students are attending Oklahoma City Public Schools than at any time in the past 35 years, district officials reported this week.

Enrollment rose by 2.4 percent or 1,115 students during the first quarter of the 2013-14 school year, continuing a decadelong trend of growth. An estimated 45,773 students are in the district compared to 44,658 after one quarter last year, officials said.

[soonerguru]

I agree.

People forget that the suburbs and what it offers are what draw people to smaller cities like OKC.

Larger, newer houses with lower costs of living in the suburbs....

Good/decent safe schools...

Parks and family friendly safe areas...

Shops, malls, restaurants, school, work, etc. all within 5 minutes of your house.

The suburbs are quiet, family friendly, convenient, usually newer homes with adequate safe schools and large homes.

I certainly didn't move south to Oklahoma to deal with an urban h*ll of traffic, tiny overpriced apartments/condos, parking nightmares, old small houses, noise, and having to deal with public transportation or walking everywhere I go daily.

Seriously, if I wanted Central Park and to live downtown in some tiny overpriced urban loft apartment and walk to get groceries at Whole Foods everyday, then ride my bike to some overly hip trendy restaurant, I would be living in NYC now, not OKC.

Whatever. No one is forcing you to live in OKC. Perhaps you should join EdmondTalk.com and extoll the many pleasantries of your bucolic lifestyle.

[bchris02]

Whatever. No one is forcing you to live in OKC. Perhaps you should join EdmondTalk.com and extoll the many pleasantries of your bucolic lifestyle.

I agree with some of what he is saying. People wanting to move somewhere specifically to live the "urban lifestyle" probably aren't going to choose OKC. However, the urban revitalization and gentrification we are experiencing is making it so that people have that option and younger people who want a vibrant community will no longer turn down a job offer just because its in OKC, something that would have happened a decade ago. A city that offers adequate urban amenities along with a low cost of living, good job market, and low crime is a winner.

[Jim Kyle]

Classen SAS is not "in the hood". Gatewood UCD is a wonderful neighborhood with a great amenity in the Plaza District. I'm raising my family here.

Good point, but it's still all too close. Specifically, the area between Main and NW 16, from Western at least out to Indiana, still hasn't been gentrified much if one pays attention to the crime reports from that region.

Back in the late '50s I lived at 1421 NW 8; it was no Nichols Hills but my neighbors were all upstanding, respectable folk, and I never feared walking to the little mon-and-pop grocery in the next block. Today it seems that "the hood" has taken over there, and I hesitate to even drive through.

The rebirth of the Plaza district, and the widening of NW 10 between Western and Penn gives hope that this part of downtown will be reclaimed but it hasn't happened yet. It HAS happened to the blocks surrounding CSAS, though, and that's good.