What happened to NW OKC?

[zookeeper]

From the second line in your link.



and the list...1. N.W. Expressway and Belle Isle Blvd.

The intersection above is not the old Classen Circle. That's where Northwest Expressway ends at Classen. The #1 worst intersection is at the Expressway and Bell Isle where you're coming off the long ramp at the interstate and merging with Northwest Expressway west bound combined with people trying to move over to make the entrance at Bell Isle Station and Penn Square Mall. It's the most harrowing few seconds. Terrible design. But it's not the old Classen Circle. That intersection is perfectly normal.

[Just the facts]

I see the (my) confusion now.

Classen Circle is now the intersection of Classen Blvd, NW Expwy, and Bell Isle Blvd (which is really just a 3 block stretch of Classen between NWExp and Classen Curve) BUT there is a second NWExpwy/Bell Isle intersection closer to Penn Sq. (At least on the map I was looking at).

Here it is before the cirlce was removed.

[zookeeper]

Classen Cicle is now the intersection of Classen Blvd, NW Expwy, and Bell Isle Blvd (which is really just a 3 block stretch of Classen between NWExp and Classen Curve).

Here it is before the cirlce was removed.

Maybe it's the street name issue. Somebody help me, the street right at that dangerous merge westbound at Penn Square and Bell Isle Station. Is that Bell Isle Station Blvd? I live right near here and see it all the time, TV stations did stand-ups at the bad intersection when this list came out, it showed just how dangerous it is. It is not the old Classen Circle intersection.



Ok, it's called Belle Isle RD maybe? here's the sign.



update: I just saw your edited post. I'm glad you figured it out, I was having a hard time explaining.

[Just the facts]

No worries Zookeeper. Thanks for setting me straight.

[Buffalo Bill]

Maybe it's the street name issue. Somebody help me, the street right at that dangerous merge westbound at Penn Square and Bell Isle Station. Is that Bell Isle Station Blvd? I live right near here and see it all the time, TV stations did stand-ups at the bad intersection when this list came out, it showed just how dangerous it is. It is not the old Classen Circle intersection.



Ok, it's called Belle Isle RD maybe? here's the sign.



update: I just saw your edited post. I'm glad you figured it out, I was having a hard time explaining.

It's a Google maps error. Belle Isle Blvd extends from Classen Blvd (at the light near the Chili's) to NW Expwy(bad intersection). The most dangerous condition at the NW Expwy/ Belle Isle junction is from Westbound cars on NW expressway illegally turning right across the Westbound I-44 ramp traffic.

[zookeeper]

It's a Google maps error. Belle Isle Blvd extends from Classen Blvd (at the light near the Chili's) to NW Expwy(bad intersection). The most dangerous condition at the NW Expwy/ Belle Isle junction is from Westbound cars on NW expressway illegally turning right across the Westbound I-44 ramp traffic.

I think it's fair to say there at least five major problems at that intersection. When one of the TV stations was there they pointed them all out. Not the least is the size of the intersection and problems east and west. Then, as you mentioned, the westbound people trying to move across to enter Bell Isle Station and Penn Square. It's just a bad spot.

Derailed thread is back on track. Northwest Oklahoma City has it's share of problems, but they are further out which is the opposite of what it used to be. Now, the Northwest Expressway area between the Valliance Bank Tower and Wedgewood is very busy with shopping and dining destinations in a few square block area that's a key corridor with May Avenue. Some of those other problems west make me terribly sad.

[rezman]

I remember when the Woodlake, Lyrewood area, and all those apartments were built. Does anyone remember the multiple fires at Woodlake when it was being built? ...Big fires.... anyway, Northwest Okc was the place to be at one time. I had an aunt and uncle who lived out at Silver Lake, up on North MacArthur, before Ski Island was built up. I remember when they built the dam there. There wasn't much out there. MacArthur was a two lane intersection with a stop sign at NW highway. Rockwell & NW Highway was Farm land..

It's interesting to have wisnessed the rise and fall of that area.

[OkieDave]

I subscribe to Rudy Guiliani's broken window theory. When a neighborhood starts to go downhill, it needs to be addressed early or it starts to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Everyone takes credit for why crime went down. Freakonomics suggest half was do to Roe v. Wade. Provocative theory growing that leaded gasoline may be responsible.

[bluedogok]

Lucent/Celestica, which owned the Western Electric plant when it closed, began winding down operations, preparing to shut it down in 2000; the Right to Work ballot was passed by voters in 2001.

Lucent was once the most widely held stock in the world which diluted its value to the large shareholders, especially the ones running the company. In the age of spinoffs, Avaya was born with the most profitable products that Lucent produced at the time, Lucent was left to die on the vine with old product and little hope. Among those not offered Avaya stock in the spin-off was the majority of Lucent/AT&T/Western Electric retirees whose retirement accounts were heavily invested in Lucent stock which became virtually worthless and then came the telecom bust. It still amazes me that whole episode never did generate more press than it did.


My parents still live in the house that my sister and I grew up in (lived there since 1965) and they have been considering moving because of what has happened in their neighborhood. There are only a few of the "old families" still there and many who moved in don't seem to take care of their properties as well as most people have for 48 years. My sister lives in Bethany and teaches in a PC school, the whole area has changed greatly since we went to school at West. All of those apartments built in the early 70's moved down market after the newer ones were built in the late 70's to early 80's and have moved even more down market in the years since to the point that the majority are Section 8 or some other kind of assistance. As others have stated, that changed the entire demographic of the area.

[BoulderSooner]

Lucent was once the most widely held stock in the world which diluted its value to the large shareholders, especially the ones running the company. In the age of spinoffs, Avaya was born with the most profitable products that Lucent produced at the time, Lucent was left to die on the vine with old product and little hope. Among those not offered Avaya stock in the spin-off was the majority of Lucent/AT&T/Western Electric retirees whose retirement accounts were heavily invested in Lucent stock which became virtually worthless and then came the telecom bust. It still amazes me that whole episode never did generate more press than it did.




My parents still live in the house that my sister and I grew up in (lived there since 1965) and they have been considering moving because of what has happened in their neighborhood. There are only a few of the "old families" still there and many who moved in don't seem to take care of their properties as well as most people have for 48 years. My sister lives in Bethany and teaches in a PC school, the whole area has changed greatly since we went to school at West. All of those apartments built in the early 70's moved down market after the newer ones were built in the late 70's to early 80's and have moved even more down market in the years since to the point that the majority are Section 8 or some other kind of assistance. As others have stated, that changed the entire demographic of the area.

i don't really think avaya got the "most profitbale porducts" ... the pr 2000 lucent sold off its consoblem was that lucent spun off or sold off all of its best divisions .. to maximize value agere systems (took the micro electronics arm) was spun off in 2002 and before that inumer products unit those things combine with the earning scandal (the misreported earnings for several years) crushed their stock and put them in a weak position ..

[Rom]

Hate to bump an old thread but was in Bethany today visiting the Deaconess wound care center. Drove around the old neighborhood and looked at the old house on 20th St. I was absolutely shocked at the area. Yards are overgrown, broken down cars in people's yards. What the hell happened to a once great town of Bethany?!?
I did not recognize that town today.

[bchris02]

Hate to bump an old thread but was in Bethany today visiting the Deaconess wound care center. Drove around the old neighborhood and looked at the old house on 20th St. I was absolutely shocked at the area. Yards are overgrown, broken down cars in people's yards. What the hell happened to a once great town of Bethany?!?
I did not recognize that town today.

I wonder the same thing. While in the past 15 years downtown has seen a renaissance, the once desirable parts of town like Bethany, Warr Acres, the Village, etc have not been treated as kindly by the years. When I lived in OKC as a child in the 90s, I remember those being the desirable areas for families, much like Deer Creek and west Edmond is today.

[betts]

Sprawl happened. When you keep building new and people think they want new and suburban living, people who can't afford the new move into the old. The process keeps occurring and maintenance isn't as good, because maintenance is expensive. We don't always budget for maintenance when we buy a house. Or an owner uses an older house as a rental property and doesn't maintain it as well as if he or she lived there.

Pockets like Crown Heights and Nichols Hills have never had that happen, but even places like Mesta Park and definitely Edgemere and Jefferson Park and Gatewood had that happen as well. Now that living closer in seems to be becoming more desirable again, and the architectural style of those areas is appreciated, renovation and renewal happens. Or, like is happening in SoSA, the less renovatable or less desirable are torn down to build new. I don't know if Bethany and the Village are close enough to city center to have that same cycle, but I hope so.

[Teo9969]

Sprawl happened. When you keep building new and people think they want new and suburban living, people who can't afford the new move into the old. The process keeps occurring and maintenance isn't as good, because maintenance is expensive. We don't always budget for maintenance when we buy a house. Or an owner uses an older house as a rental property and doesn't maintain it as well as if he or she lived there.

Pockets like Crown Heights and Nichols Hills have never had that happen, but even places like Mesta Park and definitely Edgemere and Jefferson Park and Gatewood had that happen as well. Now that living closer in seems to be becoming more desirable again, and the architectural style of those areas is appreciated, renovation and renewal happens. Or, like is happening in SoSA, the less renovatable or less desirable are torn down to build new. I don't know if Bethany and the Village are close enough to city center to have that same cycle, but I hope so.

If I had to guess, Bethany is 2 decades away from even the start of that Renaissance. The Village, with it's proximity to Nichols Hills and Quail Springs gives it a better chance, but it will be after the Urban Core starts to really get things under way.

[KenRagsdale]

I lived in Crown Heights in the late 70's and in Edgemere Park since the early 80's. Crown Heights, along with Edgemere Park, were both showing their ages during that period. Insofar as Edgemere Park is concerned, the revitalization seemed to crystalize when the Interstate highway plans were being drawn. Originally, ODOT had no plans for a burm or wall separating Edgemere Park from the Interstate. Neighbors learned of it, pooled both time and treasure to insist upon it, and eventually both were included in the plans. From that point forward, Edgemere Park Preservation, Inc., with great leadership and broad support, has grown stronger and more confident in its vision. The neighborhood has never been in better shape.

[Dubya61]

If I had to guess, Bethany is 2 decades away from even the start of that Renaissance. The Village, with it's proximity to Nichols Hills and Quail Springs gives it a better chance, but it will be after the Urban Core starts to really get things under way.

Is it possible to jump start that any? What is the Founders Tower District doing? Something slow and determined, but that might be a better and quicker path than hoping the cure finds its way to you. I just don't know if its something that is affordable on even a small scale.

[warreng88]

My wife lived in the Putnam City school district and attended PCO until she went off to college in 2002. When she was in high school and even as recent as up to 2009 (that is when her sister graduated from the same school) she said it was great and there were never really problems. Now, it seems like the whole area has gone downhill. It seems like neighborhoods are cyclical in the time they get nice and then go downhill a little (or a lot). We bought our house in the Crestwood addition in late 2007 and even since then we have seen more young couples and other people buying houses in the area and fixing them up.

I graduated from OCU (a mile away from my current house) in 2002 and at that time, you were told not to go into my current neighborhood for fear of violence. We think it is because people are moving to Edmond and Deer Creek mostly for the schools. I think in about five to ten years, we will see the Edmond schools going downhill like PC and Bethany did because people don't care about their homes as much, just want to be in a good school district and don't care as much about working with their kids on homework, just getting the teachers to do it. JMHO.

[adaniel]

I hate to sound like an old fogey, but people nowadays just are not committed to their neighborhoods and homes like they used to. And this is something that transcends OKC. I remember my own dad used to just slave away on our home, but there was a definite pride of ownership you don't see post-housing bust.

The reason you see more commitment in inner city neighborhoods is to fight off crime and creeping blight that may just be a block away. It kinda lights a fire under everyone's booty. In the burbs, however, there really is no such incentive because everything is so shiny and new at first. Also, I think a lot of people, especially with kiddos, think that they must buy a home or little Johnny will be a delinquent, and they simply have no clue about the responsibilities of home ownership. They let their homes decline, and when they decide to "upgrade" to the next ring of development that has been thrown up, they have to rent them out simply because they can't get what they paid for. Once you have a large contingent of renters (and I say this as one myself), there is simply no more pride in the home. And everything starts on its slow, steady descent from there.

Not so much Edmond, but you can go into a lot of newish neighborhoods not even 10 years old all over the metro built by lower end/starter home type builders (Home Creations, Rausch Coleman, you could probably throw in Ideal Homes) and they are already starting to look bad. We have a family friend who got out of a neighborhood on the Moore/SEOKC border that was a Home Creations neighborhood because it was starting to decline so much.

Edmond has some staying power for the mere fact it is at a higher price point, but it too may start succumbing to the same issues.

[bradh]

When people move into these starter home neighborhoods in Deer Creek or Edmond, that have a low price point, they don't realize that yes, they're moving to a nice school, but give it less than 10 years and that neighborhood is gonna be crap.

[Patrick]

When people move into these starter home neighborhoods in Deer Creek or Edmond, that have a low price point, they don't realize that yes, they're moving to a nice school, but give it less than 10 years and that neighborhood is gonna be crap.

Propery values of starter homes in Deer Creek and Edmond are well over $160k per house. I don't see why that would go down hill.

[warreng88]

Propery values of starter homes in Deer Creek and Edmond are well over $160k per house. I don't see why that would go down hill.

Maybe not the $250,000 homes or above, but I could see it happening to the homes at $200,000 or less and it is because the whole neighborhood is the same and they are all at the same price. In about 5-7 years once several people at once are trying to sell their homes, one person is going to sell for $5,000-$10,000 less than the next person, that will bring the comps (or comparables) in neighborhood down and people will be forced to either sell their homes for 10% less to get it off the market. Or, they will end up with is sitting on the market for 6-9 months (like one of my friends) because the homes around them are selling for less and they are not willing to drop the price as much as other people.

[bradh]

Exactly. There is Wynnchase and Deer Creek Village, and then you have Deer Creek Park nestled between them. In Deer Creek Village you have homes over $250k. In Wynchase similar price point (maybe a bit less). Deer Creek Park the homes start for $150k. You know right off the bat where that neighborhood is probably headed.

[progressiveboy]

Exactly. There is Wynnchase and Deer Creek Village, and then you have Deer Creek Park nestled between them. In Deer Creek Village you have homes over $250k. In Wynchase similar price point (maybe a bit less). Deer Creek Park the homes start for $150k. You know right off the bat where that neighborhood is probably headed.

Hopefully this will not be the case. If OKC can continue to attract white collar jobs like DFW then I see the values increasing and people buying and investing in these neighborhoods keeping up the values for the area. OKC does tend to let things go, unlike DFW where they will just bulldoze and start over, lol.

[warreng88]

This was the way the housing crisis hit rock bottom on the west coast. Homes were selling for $300/square foot or more and they were completely leveraged. Once banks started foreclosing on homes in the area and selling them for $200,000 less than the house next door, those homes became comparables for any other house trying to sell. Whole neighborhoods were for sale or foreclosed on. Banks started calling the notes due because people owed more than they were worth and people were just handing in their keys telling them to start foreclosure. Then the dominos continued to fall.

[warreng88]

Hopefully this will not be the case. If OKC can continue to attract white collar jobs like DFW then I see the values increasing and people buying and investing in these neighborhoods keeping up the values for the area. OKC does tend to let things go, unlike DFW where they will just bulldoze and start over, lol.

I don't think you will have too much of a problem with areas where the houses are at least a little different, but in northern Edmond, there are whole neighborhoods where the builders used the same brick/stone, same basic floorplan, same windows and all that is different is the trim paint and roof color. If there are two houses on the same street for sale with very little different between them, the buyer will pick the lower price home.