Hard Rock or Blues Brother Casino at Remington Park

[Kokopelli]

This idea is fueled by the mentions on this board for more music venues, a comedy club, a casino in OKC and the Adventure District Rail Line.

I would like to see the feasibility of OKC, the state and the Choctaw Nation to enter into an agreement that would allow casinos at Remington Park in exchange for financial considers to OKC.
Perhaps something along the line of an initial buy in and yearly payments based on a percentage of operating income from the casinos to the city. For example an initial buy in of $20.m to $30m payable in the first three years of the agreement. The annual fee would be 6 to 10 % of operating revenues.

If these new casinos and added machines generated $ 100 to $200m a year that would be anywhere from $6 to $20m a year for OKC. Current gambling revenue in the state is around the $2b mark so this is very feasible. Plus gamblers like to casino hop, so having 3 casinos in one area would make RP a gambling destination and could even draw from the DFW area.

In return the Choctaw Nation would be allowed to increase the number of machines at Remington Park and build two or three new world class casinos complete with hotels. They would have to be on current RP land or be bound on the north by 63rd Street and they would have to be world class, perhaps one of them could be a Hard Rock or Blues Brother franchise. They would have restaurants, spas, concert and entertainment venues.
For the second casino perhaps the Choctaws could partner with a Vegas casino, the Cherokees do so with Harrahs in North Carolina. This might require some changes to state law but Kansas added four true Las Vegas style gambling, so why couldn’t Oklahoma? They could also build a water park, go-cart track, and arcade park if they wanted.

The agreement would also limit surface parking lots and include provisions for potential mass trans terminal, park and ride facilities, located on and in conjunction with parking garage(s) at RP. RP could also operate shuttle services to area attractions from a transfer terminal at the park.

Now what to do with that revenue. Make this a seven year implementation plan.

Phase 1. get the ADL (Adventure District Line) started within the first two years. According to the study $10m would get the extended excursion (red line on map) option this rolling. Since the route goes through Lincoln Park Golf Course make sure the course is made whole and improved. I would like the vision include a massive tree planting through out the course a plan that included removing and banning all Eastern Red Cedar. Also allow the casinos access to the course as this could be part of a weekend package they could offer.

Phase 2. Implement light rail or street car service on the ADL. By this time at least one new casino would have been built and the city would have a better idea of mass trans potential of the ADL. The green and blue lines on map are options for rail lines. Am sure the casino would want service near one of their doors.


Phase 3. Create a Deep Fork River Park that featured kayaking and cycling / walking trails. Including improving and extending the Katy Trail (yellow line on map)all the way to the Deep Fork or NW 63rd . The portion through Lincoln Park could be along the rail route. There is or was some rail continuing almost to Deep Fork on RP land so the trails could follow along this route.
The Deep Fork would need to be cleaned out but once done, one would be able to kayak from Historic Brookhaven all the way to Arcadia Lake (eventually). Between the Oklahoma River, Lake Overholser and the Deep Fork we would be a world class river sports city.

The amount of potential this would have is staggering. What do you think?

[ljbab728]

No.

[Kokopelli]

No.

Fair enough. If IIRC you wasn't in favor of the ADL either. So no surprise.

[Kokopelli]

The annual fee to the city paid on a percentage of gross income, would carry on forever. I just did not specify where it would go or how it would be spent after the first three phases.

[ljbab728]

Fair enough. If IIRC you wasn't in favor of the ADL either. So no surprise.

Maybe you could interpret that. I have no idea what you mean. (By the way, it should be you weren't instead of you wasn't).

[Kokopelli]

Maybe you could interpret that. I have no idea what you mean.

That your reply of no, was a fair reply. And if I recall correctly the recent discussion about the Adventure District Line, you was not in favor of the line. So I was not surprised by your no response.

[ljbab728]

That your reply of no, was a fair reply. And if I recall correctly the recent discussion about the Adventure District Line, you was not in favor of the line. So I was not surprised by your no response.

You are absolutely wrong. I never voiced any disapproval of the Adventure District Line.

[Kokopelli]

You are absolutely wrong. I never voiced any disapproval of the Adventure District Line.

I recalled wrong then, my apologies for misspeaking.

[ljbab728]

I recalled wrong then, my apologies for misspeaking.

No problem. I have, however, voiced disapproval of those who have advocated for an Indian casino near the Oklahoma River or Bricktown. I just don't see that as a good fit.

[Kokopelli]

No problem. I have, however, voiced disapproval of those who have advocated for an Indian casino near the Oklahoma River or Bricktown. I just don't see that as a good fit.

I agree whole heartily that we should not have casinos in downtown, the AICC , Bricktown or on the Oklahoma River. Casinos just would not fit in with that area nor are they needed.

That is why in the plan I presented the casinos would be contained to Remington Park.

[ljbab728]

I agree whole heartily that we should not have casinos in downtown, the AICC , Bricktown or on the Oklahoma River. Casinos just would not fit in with that area nor are they needed.

That is why in the plan I presented the casinos would be contained to Remington Park.

The limited casino already there is all that is needed and and adding other options would be of little benefit. It's similar to downtown in that respect.

[adaniel]

Sorry I do not think this is a good idea. You would probably need to get legislative approval from the state to make this happen. And since the casinos you are proposing would not be directly affiliated with the racetrack, you would probably have to place the land in some sort of BIA trust, which is not easy. Plus, the Choctaws, like other big tribes in the state, like to employ their own members so I don't see them straying too far from SE OK.

I really have no problem if people want to pour their cash towards gambling. But as a matter of public policy, I don't believe OKC needs to be chasing casinos anywhere within the borders. It really cannot since there are no tribal lands in the city anyway. Places use to pursue gaming as a last ditch effort to get jobs and development (Atlantic City, Biloxi, Tunica, etc.) I don't think OKC is that desperate for such things.

You would find few people in Tulsa who think casinos there have been a net positive for the community. If anything, tribes have diverted millions of dollars from the economy into casinos that don't own the city a dime in taxes but still require services. No growth, just a lot of shifting around of money. The OK gaming industry is on shaking footing IMO since its only a matter of time when surrounding states expand gaming within their borders.

[Bill Robertson]

I wonder what rules and tax regulations there are concerning building a large casino in city limits. I know the little casino is in Remington but the large ones all seem to be just outside major city limits. Hard Rock Tulsa for instance is in Catoosa, not Tulsa proper. Riverwind is south of Norman and The Grand is northwest of Shawnee.

[bchris02]

I think an expanded casino at Remington Park would be cool. I would want it to be something exceptional though, something that would be a tourist attraction. Something with a luxury resort hotel would be nice. They should try to replicate a Vegas experience (though that would be difficult to do without coming off tacky.) Casinos need to stay far away from downtown OKC however. Generally casinos are proposed to help revive a dying community. Sometimes it works, most of the time they cause more harm than good.

I am not sure about Texas, but I know Arkansas isn't legalizing casinos any time soon.

[adaniel]

I wonder what rules and tax regulations there are concerning building a large casino in city limits. I know the little casino is in Remington but the large ones all seem to be just outside major city limits. Hard Rock Tulsa for instance is in Catoosa, not Tulsa proper. Riverwind is south of Norman and The Grand is northwest of Shawnee.

I think it really just comes down to where the tribes are able to put them.

The reason you don't see casinos in OKC is because historically speaking, OKC was in the "unassigned lands" so no tribe has any jurisdiction over this area. It covers an area roughly a mile east of El Reno, south the the S Canadian River, to a line demarcated ironically by Indian Meridian Road on the east. The Chickasaws are allowed to operate Remington Park because the equestrian industry was in such bad shape 10 years ago and pleaded with the state to allow an exception for a "racino" hybrid to get more $.

Most of Oklahoma outside of OKC (and the Cherokee Strip and Panhandle) is divided up into individual indian nations. Riverwind is operated by Chickasaws because everything in S C OKlahoma literally up to the Canadian River is their territory. Its the closest they can legally come towards OKC. I'm not completely certain how tribes can acquire land, but they can purchase it or use one of their original allotments. That's why even in Tulsa, which lies in both Creek and Cherokee Nations, you see casinos largely on the outskirts. Most of the indian allotments I imagine were sold long ago to white farmers, then to developers. And I doubt they want to pay the market rate for a piece of land in the middle of Tulsa. That doesn't mean they cannot legally do so. In fact, they already have (see River Spirit Casino).

Before a tribe builds a casino, they have to convert the land ownership from fee to BIA Trust. Once the BIA signs off on that, the land might as well be owned by France. It is legally under the sovereign power of the tribe and nothing else. More importantly, whatever municipality it is in loses the ability to collect taxes. But it still must provide services. A lot of times the tribes play nice and just pony up the cash for infrastructure improvements and use their own police force. But legally they don't have to.

But for the reason that no tribe has a historical claim to the OKC area, a tribe would not be able to buy land and place it in trust here. I guess one could try but they would face a very uphill battle from the BIA, the city, and the Chickasaws and Remington Park, who are making mint at the racino with no competition. Any proposal for an indian casino in OKC is fantasy and will likely never happen without some huge reforms at the federal level.

[bradh]

our casinos suck anyhow until they start allowing true table gaming, in my opinion. it's depressing to watch grandma sit in front of a machine choking down some cigs, wasting her social security check, and taking away another hour off her life expectancy with each press of the button

[OKCisOK4me]

I don't think the Deep Fork would make a good course for kayaking. Dirty brown water no thank you. That's why we have the Oklahoma River and the yet to be built "artificial whitewater facility".

It is in the City of OKC masterplan of walking/cycling trails to extend the Deep Fork trail along that east west portion and then also up to Arcadia Lake where it will connect to the trail that Edmond will be building around that lake. That will probably be the only activity you will see along that water way.

Of note in your Phase 3 proposal...the Katy Trail exists along Grand Boulevard and proceeds all the way to the Deep Fork, north and west of MLK.

[yukong]

FYI: The Choctaws have no connection to Remington Park or the Casino therein. The park and casino are run by a business subsidiary owned by the Chickasaw Nation.

[Kokopelli]

FYI: The Choctaws have no connection to Remington Park or the Casino therein. The park and casino are run by a business subsidiary owned by the Chickasaw Nation.

Big boo-boo on my part. Evidently I have Choctaw on the brain from their airing of the positive OKC television commercials.

[Kokopelli]

I don't think the Deep Fork would make a good course for kayaking. Dirty brown water no thank you.

The Oklahoma River is pretty brown in itself, comparing the two would kinda be like the pot calling the kettle black.

That's why we have the Oklahoma River and the yet to be built "artificial whitewater facility".

We also currently have rowing and kayaking at Lake Overholser should we stop that because we have downtown facilities.
Adding kayaking to Deep Fork would simply give kayakers another option, just as Overholser does, without having to drive downtown.

[Snowman]

I don't think the Deep Fork would make a good course for kayaking. Dirty brown water no thank you. That's why we have the Oklahoma River and the yet to be built "artificial whitewater facility".

It is in the City of OKC masterplan of walking/cycling trails to extend the Deep Fork trail along that east west portion and then also up to Arcadia Lake where it will connect to the trail that Edmond will be building around that lake. That will probably be the only activity you will see along that water way.

Of note in your Phase 3 proposal...the Katy Trail exists along Grand Boulevard and proceeds all the way to the Deep Fork, north and west of MLK.

Lake Arcadia would probably be a better course for kayaking than Deep Fork, but the most likely way I would expect that to happen is if the riversports program tries to set a program up for sprint kayak with Edmond like they have with Yukon and Putnam City do with the North Canadian by Overholser, (man my phones auto correct did not like that last sentence). Deep Fork could make ok scenic paddle like the wildlife refuge north of Lake Overholser, they might be able to share a boathouse as long as the south side of the lake off Memorial is navigable for the boats.

[OKCisOK4me]

The Oklahoma River is pretty brown in itself, comparing the two would kinda be like the pot calling the kettle black.



We also currently have rowing and kayaking at Lake Overholser should we stop that because we have downtown facilities.
Adding kayaking to Deep Fork would simply give kayakers another option, just as Overholser does, without having to drive downtown.

Have you seen the Deep Fork? Have you noticed the dirt walls give way a lot because the ground is not solid on the side walls? Unlike a Corps of Engineers river (the Oklahoma River/North Canadian rock lined channel), this creek bed is nasty. If you want to raise the money to fix that creek up all nice, you better start selling cookies now. It's just not feasible and it would be too time consuming.

[yukong]

Big boo-boo on my part. Evidently I have Choctaw on the brain from their airing of the positive OKC television commercials.

Well...at the risk of being an a$$... well...I guess there is no real risk...the positive OKC Commercials are also by the Chickasaw Nation. Hey, my family is Chickasaw...so I have to stand up for my people.

[Bill Robertson]

our casinos suck anyhow until they start allowing true table gaming, in my opinion.

I'm not a gambler myself so this might be a dumb question to some. I hear a lot of people say that Oklahoma doesn't have true table gaming. But in the casinos I see tables, dealers, chips, etc. What's the difference between Oklahoma tables and anywhere else?

[bradh]

You don't have craps or roulette here, you have card equivalents which is not the same at all