OG&E Home Energy Efficiency Program

[king183]

I signed up for OG&E's Home Energy Efficiency Program (HEEP), where they send a heating and air contractor of your choice to your home for free to see what efficiencies can be created. Has anyone done this? If so, what do you think? Did it help you save on energy?

Home Energy Efficiency Program

[Zuplar]

I haven't but I've heard about it. Let us know how it turns out cause I would be interested in doing it myself.

[Anonymous.]

I know someone who did this and they simply sent a guy who said they have too many large windows and too small of unit for the sq footage. Since blinds were already in place on said windows, nothing more could really be done.

[Servicetech571]

Units are rarely too small for sqft, most units are too large if anything.

The program is interesting though I don't understand why HEEP and Weatherization are 2 separate programs. Seems like it could be confusing to customers.

[venture]

I had a guy come in last year tell me that my duct work wasn't setup right and was letting too much heat into the A/C. Which was odd since it was just redone a few years ago. I'm thinking he was just wanting $200 and figured I didn't know any better...which I really don't, but it didn't pass the smell test. It was bad enough he overcharged the A/C unit and had to redo that.

[Servicetech571]

I had a guy come in last year tell me that my duct work wasn't setup right and was letting too much heat into the A/C. Which was odd since it was just redone a few years ago. I'm thinking he was just wanting $200 and figured I didn't know any better...which I really don't, but it didn't pass the smell test. It was bad enough he overcharged the A/C unit and had to redo that.

Did you pick the HVAC company or was it a company OG&E selected?

[venture]

They picked of course.

[king183]

They picked of course.

My HEEP inspection is tomorrow and I'll let everyone know how it goes. OG&E let me pick the heating and air company I wanted to do it. When you sign up online, they have a spot for you to choose the company and they say they'll try their best to get that company to do it. I got a call from the company I chose the very next day and scheduled the visit.

[SoonerDave]

I don't trust any tech that comes out and makes a broad assessment about whether your A/C is too large or too small just based on a quick-hitter walkthrough.

That kind of conclusion can only be made if a proper head load calculation (Manual J) is performed. One might be able to infer an oversized unit if it chronically short-cycles, but I'm not convinced you're going to see the average guy come to a home and stay long enough to make that conclusion.

Learned the hard way you just can't rely on quick-hit visits to assess the relative virtue of things like A/C and heating performance. It requires real testing, not just some guy walking through with an OGE pamphlet in his hand.

A guy came to my home last year and spent the better part of two hours before concluding I didn't have sufficient supply air to my A/C, and was surprised I hadn't had blower issues as a result. Problem was he estimated the cost of custom-cutting a third duct to alleviate the problem, and he said it was such a large percentage of a total duct rework that it wasn't cost-effective and he didn't recommend it. He did not perform a Man J calc.

[Servicetech571]

+1 for a full manual J. However it's only as accurate as the numbers inputted into the program. Use realistic numbers for indoor/outdoor temps and R-values for wallls/ceiling.

[king183]

The tech from the air company I requested came this morning to do the HEEP inspection. It lasted about 2 hours. The guy was very nice and took the time to explain everything to me. He spent quite a bit of time in my attic. He sealed the plenum, fixed some leaks in the ductwork, and did something else I can't recall off the top of my head. Outside, he cleaned the AC unit and covered the condensate line with the black insulation stuff.

He recommended I put 14" of insulation it the attic because there was virtually none. He recommended blowing in insulation with a friend using the free equipment offered by Home Depot and Lowes. He did say my 11 year old AC unit will need to be replaced at some point in the near future because it's working too hard in the hot days (which he said may actually be ameliorated with insulation in the attic) and it uses the R-22 refrigerant. He quoted me $3800-4000 for a 13 SEER Lenox unit (I believe it was 2 1/2 tons, but don't quote me on that).

So, for a free service, it seemed worthwhile.

[SoonerDave]

The tech from the air company I requested came this morning to do the HEEP inspection. It lasted about 2 hours. The guy was very nice and took the time to explain everything to me. He spent quite a bit of time in my attic. He sealed the plenum, fixed some leaks in the ductwork, and did something else I can't recall off the top of my head. Outside, he cleaned the AC unit and covered the condensate line with the black insulation stuff.

He recommended I put 14" of insulation it the attic because there was virtually none. He recommended blowing in insulation with a friend using the free equipment offered by Home Depot and Lowes. He did say my 11 year old AC unit will need to be replaced at some point in the near future because it's working too hard in the hot days (which he said may actually be ameliorated with insulation in the attic) and it uses the R-22 refrigerant. He quoted me $3800-4000 for a 13 SEER Lenox unit (I believe it was 2 1/2 tons, but don't quote me on that).

So, for a free service, it seemed worthwhile.

On what did he base his assessment that the AC "is working too hard in the hot days?" Did he put a meter on the compressor and find it was drawing too much current? Or was it an arbitrary observation? Point is if it is operating abnormally, I think he should explain specifically how it's operation is abnormal.

If you are considering dropping $4K on a new A/C unit, I would strongly encourage you to find a contractor that will perform a proper heat load (Manual J) analysis on your home before telling you what tonnage you need. Lots of vendors sell what they have in stock (or can get quickly). It doesn't mean that's really what your home needs. There is an old myth (which varies from builder to builder and contractor to contractor) that you need X tons per Y square feet, and those old axioms just aren't reliable. For that kind of money, I would do everything possible to educate myself on what I need, not what was most aggressively pitched.

Of course someone like that will come in and clean the outside AC and run some tape on the plenum if there's a 4K+ sale in the offing. You can clean the condenser yourself by just thoroughy hosing down the fins at least once each year, typically late spring before the summer season happens. One of the biggest/easiest points of failure (as hard experience has taught me) is are dust-congested fins on the blower that make it nearly impossible for the unit to properly dissipate heat, causing to overheat and either tripping a thermal break or simply burning the wire(s) to the power block.

I'm not saying the guy who came out was being deceptive or trying to trick you, but I'm just trying to encourage you to know his perspective - he's coming in under the auspices of providing a service, which he did, but he's hoping against hope you'll buy an A/C from him. The "free service" is a loss leader, kinda like cheap coffee at the grocery store.

Just be educated as best you can. You can't necessarily become an HVAC tech all at once, but at least a little info can help you save money now and later.

[venture]

Thanks for saying how it turned out. Where the leak fixes and such all included or did you pay extra for that?

[Rover]

The tech from the air company I requested came this morning to do the HEEP inspection. It lasted about 2 hours. The guy was very nice and took the time to explain everything to me. He spent quite a bit of time in my attic. He sealed the plenum, fixed some leaks in the ductwork, and did something else I can't recall off the top of my head. Outside, he cleaned the AC unit and covered the condensate line with the black insulation stuff.

He recommended I put 14" of insulation it the attic because there was virtually none. He recommended blowing in insulation with a friend using the free equipment offered by Home Depot and Lowes. He did say my 11 year old AC unit will need to be replaced at some point in the near future because it's working too hard in the hot days (which he said may actually be ameliorated with insulation in the attic) and it uses the R-22 refrigerant. He quoted me $3800-4000 for a 13 SEER Lenox unit (I believe it was 2 1/2 tons, but don't quote me on that).

So, for a free service, it seemed worthwhile.

Also not sure what he meant by "the unit working too hard". The older unit is less efficient and will run longer than the new one. The outside ambient air temperature will affect how HARD the compressor works as it is forced to expel heat from the condenser into hotter air. The new units are by mandate a higher SEER than was dictated 11 years ago. It uses a larger evaporator coil and probably a better expansion valve....maybe even a staged or variable volume fan to be more efficient. One has to be careful though as a larger unit can actually be a negative when it comes to comfort if it is oversized. That means the unit runs less time. If it is running less it is dehumidifying less. That means you have to actually get to a lower temperature to feel comfortable. Many people actually set their tstats lower to get the same comfort as their old unit which ran longer to do the same work. Oddly, they then lose much of the efficiency they gained in the upgrade.

Just make sure your service tech REALLY understand the theory of AC.

[king183]

Thanks for saying how it turned out. Where the leak fixes and such all included or did you pay extra for that?

The leak fixes and seals were all free to me. I didn't have to pay a single thing. I believe they billed OGE $150, though.

[king183]

On what did he base his assessment that the AC "is working too hard in the hot days?" Did he put a meter on the compressor and find it was drawing too much current? Or was it an arbitrary observation? Point is if it is operating abnormally, I think he should explain specifically how it's operation is abnormal.

Of course someone like that will come in and clean the outside AC and run some tape on the plenum if there's a 4K+ sale in the offing. You can clean the condenser yourself by just thoroughy hosing down the fins at least once each year, typically late spring before the summer season happens. One of the biggest/easiest points of failure (as hard experience has taught me) is are dust-congested fins on the blower that make it nearly impossible for the unit to properly dissipate heat, causing to overheat and either tripping a thermal break or simply burning the wire(s) to the power block.

I'm not saying the guy who came out was being deceptive or trying to trick you, but I'm just trying to encourage you to know his perspective - he's coming in under the auspices of providing a service, which he did, but he's hoping against hope you'll buy an A/C from him. The "free service" is a loss leader, kinda like cheap coffee at the grocery store.

Just be educated as best you can. You can't necessarily become an HVAC tech all at once, but at least a little info can help you save money now and later.

Also not sure what he meant by "the unit working too hard". The older unit is less efficient and will run longer than the new one. The outside ambient air temperature will affect how HARD the compressor works as it is forced to expel heat from the condenser into hotter air. The new units are by mandate a higher SEER than was dictated 11 years ago. It uses a larger evaporator coil and probably a better expansion valve....maybe even a staged or variable volume fan to be more efficient. One has to be careful though as a larger unit can actually be a negative when it comes to comfort if it is oversized. That means the unit runs less time. If it is running less it is dehumidifying less. That means you have to actually get to a lower temperature to feel comfortable. Many people actually set their tstats lower to get the same comfort as their old unit which ran longer to do the same work. Oddly, they then lose much of the efficiency they gained in the upgrade.

Just make sure your service tech REALLY understand the theory of AC.

Thanks for the info, guys. That's pretty helpful. I was also confused by him saying the AC unit was working too hard because he did say the temperature difference and other operations were running nicely and normally. By "working too hard" I gather he was saying the unit is going to be running all day on a 90+ degree day and costing me in utility bills (Would that still be the case with a newer unit?). He also mentioned that R-22 refrigerant is extremely expensive.

I should also note that I didn't feel as if he was trying to sell me the unit. He didn't really pitch it to me and, in fact, he offered several suggestions for how to prolong the life of the current unit, including many of the helpful ways SoonerDave mentioned (cleaning the unit and clearing the condensate line yourself). One concern he did note was that the blower fan in the attic unit was kind of dirty and that the A coil (?) was also at risk of getting too dirty because the people who lived in the house just before me never changed the air filters. He said the fan and coil were fine now, but I needed to be sure to change those filters about every 3 months to prevent them from accumulating more dust/dirt/etc.

[SoonerDave]

Thanks for the info, guys. That's pretty helpful. I was also confused by him saying the AC unit was working too hard because he did say the temperature difference and other operations were running nicely and normally. By "working too hard" I gather he was saying the unit is going to be running all day on a 90+ degree day and costing me in utility bills (Would that still be the case with a newer unit?). He also mentioned that R-22 refrigerant is extremely expensive.

I should also note that I didn't feel as if he was trying to sell me the unit. He didn't really pitch it to me and, in fact, he offered several suggestions for how to prolong the life of the current unit, including many of the helpful ways SoonerDave mentioned (cleaning the unit and clearing the condensate line yourself). One concern he did note was that the blower fan in the attic unit was kind of dirty and that the A coil (?) was also at risk of getting too dirty because the people who lived in the house just before me never changed the air filters. He said the fan and coil, were fine now, but I needed to be sure to change those filters about every 3 months to prevent them from accumulating more dust/dirt/etc.

That he wasn't selling hard is a good thing. Good to hear.

It sounds like he may have just been saying that an existing unit is inherently going to "work harder" than a new one. That's true only if the new one is properly sized. You get one that's too big for your home and it will short-cycle (run frequently for just a few minutes at a time, but not enough to change temperature). Conversely, one that's too small will run long but never cool the house. That's why "right-sizing" is so critical to getting the most bang for the electricity buck. You can have the best compressor around, but if your ductwork isn't properly laid out such that you get proper air flow through the system, you'll be spending extra bucks chasing the "right" temperature for your house.

Absolutely vital that the filter get changed regularly, because the dust can accumulate on the filter media and then, downstream, on the blower fins, thus inducing additional load on the blower motor due to the increased weight on those fins. Also, you should (IMHO) not use the high-dollar "allergy" filters (or other relatively "thick") filters because they impede air flow back to the blower and make it work harder than it should to complete the "circuit" of air return. I use the cheapest filter media I can find. Its another one of those cases where you can be conditioned to think more expensive is better, but it really isn't. In fact, its just the opposite.

[Servicetech571]

The 4" media filters are actually the most effective solution for residential filtration. Filters are about $10 @ Locke supply and don't hinder airflow.

[Rover]

Filters are important in two areas. One, if they become tightly packed and the proper amount of airflow is not allowed then there can be coil freeze. Secondly, if a minimal filter is used, dust can pass through and accumulate on a wet evaporator coil. Then, the heat transfer capability of the coil is greatly reduced (dust layer acts as an insulator) and efficiency is lost. Also, a poor filter allows spores to pass into the wet coil and pan and can cause mold growth which can be smelly and also a health hazard. Get high efficiency, low static resistance filters. Pleated are best (more air surface area per square inches). Get good filters...it is very important...don't go on the cheap. Also, make sure the filters are properly fitted and installed so that there is not dirty air bypass.

[CaptDave]

I am glad I stumbled onto this thread. Now that we have a couple HVAC techs/designers (?) answering questions, here are a couple I have been thinking about for quite a while.

Are the "whole house" intake plenum filters a good idea? How about the electrostatic / electronic ones? I recall one of the TV shows (This Old House I think) showing what looked like a pretty high tech effective filtration system adjacent to the furnace/heat pump.

How do you get the newer flexible ducting cleaned? I have been hesitant to get it done for fear of the cleaning ripping flex ducts. I know that would help with the system efficiency by keeping it clean not to mention less dust flying around indoors.

[Servicetech571]

Ducts aren't your problem when it comes to dirt, 80% of the dirty in a typical HVAC system is in the A-Coil and Blower wheel. Getting those cleaned and the refrigerant charge adjusted are the 2 biggest things you can do to improve system efficiency and indoor air quality on an existing system. Unfortuantely to have it done right is expensive, therefore it is rarely done over the life of a system. Once the coil gets plugged up airflow drops dramatically and refrigerant is sent back to the compressor. Once that happens it isn't long before the liquid refrigerant blows the compressor. Then it's time for a new system and the cycle repeats itself.

Whenever a system is replaced I HIGHLY recommend having a media filter cabinet installed, your blower/A-coil will stay clean for the life of the system. The cost of having a blower wheel and A-Coil properly cleaned ONCE exceeds the price of a media filter cabinet. 1" filters simply aren't up to the task of keeping modern coils with closely spaced fins clean while maintaining a reasonable static pressure. The mid priced pleated filters (about $5) are the best option for most people that aren't ready or can't afford to upgrade to a media cabinet. The blue fiberglass filters let too much dirt through, the 3M filters are too restrictive. Whatever filter you get, change it when it gets dirty. I don't care that is says "up to 90 days" on the package

[CaptDave]

Thank you for the information. If/when I move or replace this HVAC system I will definitely insist on the filter cabinet. I wonder if it might be worth having the A - Coil and Blower wheel service done AND retrofitting the media cabinet since this system is "only" 7 years old. The house stays cool/warm and the system seems to be working properly, but if I can make it better.......

[Servicetech571]

Thank you for the information. If/when I move or replace this HVAC system I will definitely insist on the filter cabinet. I wonder if it might be worth having the A - Coil and Blower wheel service done AND retrofitting the media cabinet since this system is "only" 7 years old. The house stays cool/warm and the system seems to be working properly, but if I can make it better.......

Unless a unit is REALLY malfunctioning it will normally stay cool/warm in the house. That's what oversizing does, masks other problems with the system. If the blower wheel is easy to get to look at it. If it looks dirty the A-coil is normally dirty also.

http://acrightsize.com/files/10_reas...g_persists.pdf
http://www.energystar.gov/ia/home_im...ondFS_2005.pdf

[ctchandler]

ST571,
A couple of questions, I have an electronic air cleaner, should I replace it/supplement it with the "media filter cabinet"? Regardless of your answer, with what I have or would have with the addition of the media filter cabinet, do I need to put a filter in my return vents? I still do, but I'm not sure it's really helping, and could be hurting my system.
Thanks,
C. T.

Whenever a system is replaced I HIGHLY recommend having a media filter cabinet installed, your blower/A-coil will stay clean for the life of the system.

[Servicetech571]

ST571,
A couple of questions, I have an electronic air cleaner, should I replace it/supplement it with the "media filter cabinet"? Regardless of your answer, with what I have or would have with the addition of the media filter cabinet, do I need to put a filter in my return vents? I still do, but I'm not sure it's really helping, and could be hurting my system.
Thanks,
C. T.

If you keep on top of the electronic air cleaner it does an excellent job, nothing extra required. Most people have given up on the electronic air cleaners because they are a lot of work to wash the cells every month or 2. I've seen many electronic filters where the customer took out the electronic cells and stuck a 4" or 5" media filter in it's place. Look at your blower wheel, it will tell you if the existing filter is doing it's job. If the blower wheel is clean, the filter works just fine.