NW Expressway & Classen

[bchris02]

Lifestyle centers haven't been a popular concept here. Actually, Aubrey was working towards it at 63rd and Western area. And, one was blocked at 36th and Bway Extension. Until the urbanized lifestyle is shown and adopted here, downtown is the best and seemingly only area where it is totally embraced. As people see the value in it they will be more understanding and accepting of the quasi urban suburban life centers. But, rather than artificially create one, I think they will come from places like Capitol Hill, Britton, Bethany, 63rd, and May, etc., where there is already a concentration of people and business. While I agree Belle Isle would have been a great location for one, I don't really think one was ever planned for.

What makes OKC different from smaller markets like Wichita, Tulsa, Little Rock, etc that have all embraced the lifestyle center concept? That's not even considering what similar-sized cities have. Memphis, Louisville, Birmingham, Charlotte, etc have lifestyle center developments that are but a pipe dream in OKC. Personally, I don't think its OKC's fault for not embracing that type of development, but its developers' fault for not getting anything proposed until shortly before the 2008 crash, which of course resulted in the proposed projects being cancelled. Lifestyle centers aren't being built in the numbers they were built before 2008 anywhere. I wonder if maybe OKC missed its chance to ever have a real one.

[bluedogok]

I agree, it isn't that OKC won't accept them. The big issue is most developers don't want to do anything more than the bare minimum. I worked in The Domain for two and a half years, while a horrible layout there is no reason why it couldn't work in OKC.

As far as that proposal for Belle Isle, there were many proposals to save the power plant but without major assistance on the remediation of the power plant any kind of project was not feasible. When I was at Benham I worked on potential plans for Benham buying the facility and moving our offices over there, excluding environmental remediation it was feasible. The only reason why the Seaholm Plant redevelopment in Austin is working is because the City of Austin and the city owned utility paid for the remediation before development started. That option wasn't present for Belle Isle as it was not owned by the city and OG+E had sold it many years prior.

[Chicken In The Rough]

Belle Isle would have made a spectacular REI. Pity.

[bchris02]

Belle Isle would have made a spectacular REI. Pity.

Honestly in my opinion, Belle Isle was the biggest recent wasted opportunity in OKC development that I am aware of. Virtually anything else would have been better for that location than a Wal-Mart. Not developing it at all would have been better. Development like this is what has long contributed to the lower standard of living in OKC as compared to other cities similar sized and even smaller. Hopefully the recent opposition to the Springhill Suites signals things have changed in this city and people will no longer let developers give this market their scraps.

[Spartan]

Honestly in my opinion, Belle Isle was the biggest recent wasted opportunity in OKC development that I am aware of. Virtually anything else would have been better for that location than a Wal-Mart. Not developing it at all would have been better. Development like this is what has long contributed to the lower standard of living in OKC as compared to other cities similar sized and even smaller. Hopefully the recent opposition to the Springhill Suites signals things have changed in this city and people will no longer let developers give this market their scraps.

That was also the beginning of a dark age in which Wal Mart was officially using OKC as their test market, because nowhere else did they have such a huge chunk of market share. OKC's retail and development progress should really be viewed based on how dominant WM still is. Real progress may include even closing a super center or two.

[Teo9969]

That was also the beginning of a dark age in which Wal Mart was officially using OKC as their test market, because nowhere else did they have such a huge chunk of market share. OKC's retail and development progress should really be viewed based on how dominant WM still is. Real progress may include even closing a super center or two.

Starting with Belle Isle...

And I shop there all the time, so it's not like someone could accuse me of being anti wal-mart.

[Urbanized]

I'm no fan of either Wal-Mart or that development, but you know that store is surely one of the top-performing (if not THE top-performing) units in the metro, right? Do you really think the owners of a wildly (commercially) successful development will be tearing it down soon because they'll start wishing it had been built better? With MASSIVE swaths of undeveloped and underdeveloped land all over the city, if they suddenly get an itch to "do things right" do you think they might not instead do it elsewhere and let that development keep happily flowing rivers of cash? Do you honestly believe that Wal-Mart will close and/or move from a hugely profitable location because they are concerned that they might have created a blight on the neighborhood?

It's completely fair to look at that development as a learning experience for the city, and to use it as an example of what we should strive to do better than in the future. But the bulldozer fantasies we have on this board sometimes are so greatly-disconnected from reality, economics and the business world that it causes a loss of credibility when posting other subjects.

Yeah, Belle Isle was completely disappointing, but probably only about 1 in 100 people in OKC knows this or cares. It makes mountains of cash. Hate it? OK. But don't waste your time hoping for it to be gone anytime soon.

[onthestrip]

Regarding the SW corner of Expressway and Classen, expect retail. The folks behind it are retail people. I imagine they still have some acquiring to do to have enough land to develop a decent project.

And we all know that Belle Isle sucks. Sure it was a probably easier deal for the developers to do a wal mart there but with a little more effort it could easily have been the upscale lifestyle center we have been craving.

[OKCTalker]

Has the land where Horn Seed was been sold yet? I saw it on a Loop Net listing even before David closed the store down. That could make an interesting mid-rise type of development with the properties between Pearl's and the hotels.

John Kennedy, Irish Realty. Experience with shopping center development, First National Center & Waterford among other things.

[bchris02]

I'm no fan of either Wal-Mart or that development, but you know that store is surely one of the top-performing (if not THE top-performing) units in the metro, right? Do you really think the owners of a wildly (commercially) successful development will be tearing it down soon because they'll start wishing it had been built better? With MASSIVE swaths of undeveloped and underdeveloped land all over the city, if they suddenly get an itch to "do things right" do you think they might not instead do it elsewhere and let that development keep happily flowing rivers of cash? Do you honestly believe that Wal-Mart will close and/or move from a hugely profitable location because they are concerned that they might have created a blight on the neighborhood?

It's completely fair to look at that development as a learning experience for the city, and to use it as an example of what we should strive to do better than in the future. But the bulldozer fantasies we have on this board sometimes are so greatly-disconnected from reality, economics and the business world that it causes a loss of credibility when posting other subjects.

Yeah, Belle Isle was completely disappointing, but probably only about 1 in 100 people in OKC knows this or cares. It makes mountains of cash. Hate it? OK. But don't waste your time hoping for it to be gone anytime soon.

Correct. The Belle Isle Wal-Mart has to be one of the top performing in the metro area. It's not going anywhere. Belle Isle was a catastrophic wasted opportunity and should be an example of what not to do with prime real estate going forward, but its there now and successful. Hopefully this new development brings with it a higher standard than Belle Isle.

[adaniel]

Regarding the SW corner of Expressway and Classen, expect retail. The folks behind it are retail people. I imagine they still have some acquiring to do to have enough land to develop a decent project.

And we all know that Belle Isle sucks. Sure it was a probably easier deal for the developers to do a wal mart there but with a little more effort it could easily have been the upscale lifestyle center we have been craving.

Good to hear. I guess I'll take the minority opinion and say the Northwest Expressway corridor is not ready for spec office space. It's doing well, but there still is quite a bit of open space in some of those buildings.

As far as Belle Isle is concerned, yeah its very meh but I can't bust it too hard since it's no different from any other "power center" in this area. The Wal Mart is terrible and detracts from the entire center, but the other stores are usually well kept. The Nordstrom Rack won't be a game changer, but will hopefully inspire them to step it up a little.

If we want to talk about "lost opportunities", take issue with the owners of 50 Penn and Classen Curve. Those were supposed to be the properties that were to cater to upscale stores in that area from the get go. Their record has been less than stellar.

[bchris02]

^^^ I have a feeling Classen Curve is about to come together now that they are opening it up to chains. At first they wanted to keep it entirely local and in my opinion that killed the center. Chain stores, like them or not, are what creates draw.

[Patrick]

Lifestyle centers haven't been a popular concept here. Actually, Aubrey was working towards it at 63rd and Western area. And, one was blocked at 36th and Bway Extension. Until the urbanized lifestyle is shown and adopted here, downtown is the best and seemingly only area where it is totally embraced. As people see the value in it they will be more understanding and accepting of the quasi urban suburban life centers. But, rather than artificially create one, I think they will come from places like Capitol Hill, Britton, Bethany, 63rd, and May, etc., where there is already a concentration of people and business. While I agree Belle Isle would have been a great location for one, I don't really think one was ever planned for.

I don't know if I agree with this. The Outlet shoppes is an outdoor lifestyle center. Classen Curve is an outdoor lifestyle center. Spring Creek Plaza and Spring Creek Village in Edmond are upscale lifestyle centers. Your outdoor shopping centers like Quail Springs MarketPlace and Belle Isle Station are outdoor strip centers.Then you have all of the new lifestyle centers in Moore (Riverwalk crossing) and the new one in Norman.

[Urbanized]

How are either of those lifestyle centers, exactly, as opposed to strip retail centers? Nicer finish and more upscale mix, no doubt. But my understanding of lifestyle centers is that they usually include housing and are set up so that some people (residents or guests at a hotel, if included in the development) can interact with them much like urban residents connect with their own environments. Those places, while obviously nicer, are still just shopping centers.

[bchris02]

Spring Creek is a "tiny" lifestyle center. Classen Curve and the Outlet Mall are not though.

[edcrunk]

I guess I'm an A-hole cuz I'm glad Walmart is right where it's at. It's very convenient.

[Rover]

I don't know if I agree with this. The Outlet shoppes is an outdoor lifestyle center. Classen Curve is an outdoor lifestyle center. Spring Creek Plaza and Spring Creek Village in Edmond are upscale lifestyle centers. Your outdoor shopping centers like Quail Springs MarketPlace and Belle Isle Station are outdoor strip centers.Then you have all of the new lifestyle centers in Moore (Riverwalk crossing) and the new one in Norman.

Lifestyle centers are not the same as shopping centers. And those areas you mention are not designed like lifestyle centers even in their retail areas. They are just shopping centers. Big difference. OKC has no lifestyle centers, in any way.

[bchris02]

I guess I'm an A-hole cuz I'm glad Walmart is right where it's at. It's very convenient.

Convenience is nice, but there is a Wal-Mart at virtually every major intersection in this town. Belle Isle was the perfect location for something unique and special.

[RodH]

^^^ I have a feeling Classen Curve is about to come together now that they are opening it up to chains. At first they wanted to keep it entirely local and in my opinion that killed the center. Chain stores, like them or not, are what creates draw.

Including Wal-Mart.

[Patrick]

My bad. I thought you were referring to basically an outdoor shopping mall, which is what some mean when they refer to lifestyle centers these days. Tuscana was planned to be a lifestyle center, but the recession of 2008 killed it.

The downtown areas like Bricktown, Midtown, and Deep Deuce are about as close as we get to a lifestyle center.

[Plutonic Panda]

A Walmart being there is fine. It would be better if they cut that parking lot in half and built more store, face lifted the Walmart, put 30 stories on top of it, expand that parking garage by PS and reduce that parking lot to add more store there, ect. I have no problem with the Walmart being there, they could make it look nicer though.

[bluedogok]

I was not happy a Walmart went in there but they were the ones to make a redevelopment work. The amazing thing is Walmart really didn't have much of an OKC presence until the mid to late 80's.

[Rover]

I was not happy a Walmart went in there but they were the ones to make a redevelopment work. The amazing thing is Walmart really didn't have much of an OKC presence until the mid to late 80's.

Walmart wasn't in large cities until that time. Their strategic focus was on being the big retailer and dominant in small cities.

[bchris02]

Walmart wasn't in large cities until that time. Their strategic focus was on being the big retailer and dominant in small cities.

Wal-Mart has done many small towns even worse than they have OKC. Wal-Mart's strategy in the early 90s was to come into small towns and run out all competition entirely, becoming the only place to shop. When I lived in Central Missouri, the saying used to be "If Wal-Mart doesn't have it, you're out of luck." They succeeded in many towns. Many small town main streets are boarded up to this day as a result of Wal-Mart. On the positive side, there are many big box chains that follow Wal-Mart and open wherever they do, so many small towns today have chain stores they would never have had if not for Wal-Mart.

[bluedogok]

In this part of the country Walmart started out in the smaller towns in the 70's before moving into the larger cities in the 80's.