Preftakes Block

[Spartan]

My high school group attended a YMCA/state government function in OKC two consecutive years in 70 and 71. We stayed at The Biltmore one yr and Hotel Black the next. Two boys were confronted with men wanting sex from them in the men's room at the Biltmore and we kept being disturbed ath the Hotel Black by "bellmen" wanting to provide us girls. On the street, we kept getting hit up by panhandlers who were mostly drunks. It was a disgusting place to be. Maybe that is why I have less affection for the "good ole days" downtown that so many on here pine for. They obviously weren't here at that time. It was a run down seedy place to be.

If we tore down every building that stood witness to homosexuality or prostitution we wouldn't have any buildings left. Maybe a few homes in Sally Kern's district...and yours of course. But not your home in Chelsea.

[Rover]

If we tore down every building that stood witness to homosexuality or prostitution we wouldn't have any buildings left. Maybe a few homes in Sally Kern's district...and yours of course. But not your home in Chelsea.

You seem smarter than to read that into what I said. Surely you are.

[Spartan]

Quite frankly I'm not sure what you wrote, but I'd hate to hear what kind of activities were going on in Bricktown or Automobile Alley back in your youth.

We're talking about demolition of the historic Preftakes-owned properties in this thread, as you must have known when you suggested that everyone here would've demolished the seedy downtown you knew in the 70s.

[Rover]

No, earlier the discussion was about what precipitated drastic action in downtown. Too many on here vilify while having a romanticized notion of what was going on. Posting pictures without overlaying with what actually happened leading up to decisions is misleading. Destroying everything wasn't right, but it was desperate times and circumstances that helped create the environment that called to action. It is completely different now.

And, the comment didn't have anything to do with sexuality but with deviancy and public threat or danger. Surely you can't approve. People wanted it to change. And whether it was accomplished the right way or not, it did change. It also isn't about the drunks or deviants, but about what led to it and what decisions it spurred.

History and preservation isn't just about buildings but about what led to decisions and changes so we don't make the same mistakes over and over.

Text without context is pretext. We want to skip context too often on this board.

[Rover]

We're talking about demolition of the historic Preftakes-owned properties in this thread, as you must have known when you suggested that everyone here would've demolished the seedy downtown you knew in the 70s.

Frankly this is a dishonest attempt to be dramatic. I did not, nor do not advocate such. There was no such suggestion, but an attempt to put things in context. Self centered people believe history begins with them and their era. It is intellectually lazy to ignore historical context.

[Spartan]

Okaaay.... so then you're anti-demo?

[BDP]

My high school group attended a YMCA/state government function in OKC two consecutive years in 70 and 71. We stayed at The Biltmore one yr and Hotel Black the next. Two boys were confronted with men wanting sex from them in the men's room at the Biltmore and we kept being disturbed ath the Hotel Black by "bellmen" wanting to provide us girls. On the street, we kept getting hit up by panhandlers who were mostly drunks. It was a disgusting place to be. Maybe that is why I have less affection for the "good ole days" downtown that so many on here pine for. They obviously weren't here at that time. It was a run down seedy place to be.

I don't see as much of a pining for the mythical "good ole days" as much as a desire to see historic structures preserved and re-purposed so that downtown can create a competitive urban landscape where these interesting works from our past contribute to the community in positive ways as opposed to hosting the seedy activities you experienced. In most cases the context is not what took place in the structures at a given point in time, but how they can be used to further facilitate Oklahoma City's renaissance by helping create a more definitive Oklahoma City experience for residents and guests.

There are so many examples of derelict buildings that once hosted vice being renovated and turned into hosts for positive activity and, in turn, became part of a city's most popular and defining districts that it almost seems reckless to do anything else these days, especially in an urban area where so much undeveloped or underdeveloped real estate exists. While Oklahoma City missed out in the 90s when every other city in the country was turning some of their most troubled neighborhoods into the their most important assets, we do have examples of that happening here on some scale. MidTown, Bricktown, and The Plaza district are what they are or becoming what they will be because of renovation. I think, if anything, people are just pining for more of that. The unique thing about Oklahoma City, since we have already torn down so much, is that we could renovate every currently standing structure without creating a real estate barrier to new development. Unfortunately, demolition still seems to be the preference over first developing lots that were already cleared decades ago, even when they are within a block of each other.

[Rover]

Okaaay.... so then you're anti-demo?

Not as an absolute, but yes I am. I have always advocated updating and/or re-purposing of significant and salvageable buildings. Of course, it always gets into what is significant and salvageable. I also have a degree in economics and in finance and I understand the financial realities as well as social realities that lead to decisions that look smart at the time but dumb in the rear view mirror.

[Rover]

I don't see as much of a pining for the mythical "good ole days" as much as a desire to see historic structures preserved and re-purposed so that downtown can create a competitive urban landscape where these interesting works from our past contribute to the community in positive ways as opposed to hosting the seedy activities you experienced. In most cases the context is not what took place in the structures at a given point in time, but how they can be used to further facilitate Oklahoma City's renaissance by helping create a more definitive Oklahoma City experience for residents and guests.

There are so many examples of derelict buildings that once hosted vice being renovated and turned into hosts for positive activity and, in turn, became part of a city's most popular and defining districts that it almost seems reckless to do anything else these days, especially in an urban area where so much undeveloped or underdeveloped real estate exists. While Oklahoma City missed out in the 90s when every other city in the country was turning some of their most troubled neighborhoods into the their most important assets, we do have examples of that happening here on some scale. MidTown, Bricktown, and The Plaza district are what they are or becoming what they will be because of renovation. I think, if anything, people are just pining for more of that. The unique thing about Oklahoma City, since we have already torn down so much, is that we could renovate every currently standing structure without creating a real estate barrier to new development. Unfortunately, demolition still seems to be the preference over first developing lots that were already cleared decades ago, even when they are within a block of each other.

I see a huge amount of renovation and reuse in OKC today. I am not sure that demo is indeed the preference. However I think it should be no surprise that as we make the core a more valuable place that there is economic pressure to justify low income properties remaining in highly desired places. What we have to shore up is defining the economic value to society that overrides opportunity to earn. It puts pressure on defining the significance of every building that is endangered and is in a highly valued area.

[OKCNDN]

If we tore down every building that stood witness to homosexuality or prostitution we wouldn't have any buildings left. Maybe a few homes in Sally Kern's district...and yours of course. But not your home in Chelsea.

The two buildings mentioned as being a problem are still standing, the bus station and Hotel Black building.

If every building that had a problem were torn down there would be more gone than was taken down. Some of it had to go. No way could all those buildings been kept and the area still revitalized. The reputation of the area was just too bad. It's still bad with some people (deservedly or not).

There was still a porn theater a block away until the late 90's. And my dad confirmed the Hotel Black was a hooker hotel, a "no-tel motel" a "ramrod inn". The area's reputation did not go easily. The area was cleaned up over 35 years ago yet is just now getting over the stigma of being a rough area.

With the halfway house on Walker and homeless shelter on Reno, that area is now looked upon as less than desirable. Many posters on here have stated they want those areas moved. People wanted the detox tank moved from Deep Deuce and it happened. It's easy to imagine the same thing happened with some of those buildings back in the 70's. "That area is too rough, we have to move some of that element out" and you get what you have today, a demolished building.

Yet, it's a good thing that some of the buildings are still standing and can be reused today. Sadly not all could be saved. But even with renovation and the construction of new office buildings I think downtown's heyday as far as shopping is long gone and won't return. Downtown shopping probably wasn't even what some think it was.

[BDP]

I see a huge amount of renovation and reuse in OKC today. I am not sure that demo is indeed the preference. However I think it should be no surprise that as we make the core a more valuable place that there is economic pressure to justify low income properties remaining in highly desired places. What we have to shore up is defining the economic value to society that overrides opportunity to earn. It puts pressure on defining the significance of every building that is endangered and is in a highly valued area.

I didn't mean to say that renovation isn't happening at all. I just meant that when there is significant new development, it seems the preference is to begin with demolition of an older structure, and its sometimes for nothing more than a parking lot or plaza.

I understand where you're coming from and it would certainly apply in an area with less inventory of undeveloped or underdeveloped land. We literally tear stuff down for a new project that is within a block of empty or underdeveloped land. Having lived places where there is more active preservation and less inventory, it just seems relatively misguided.

[edcrunk]

Quite frankly I'm not sure what you wrote, but I'd hate to hear what kind of activities were going on in Bricktown or Automobile Alley back in your youth.

Well, in Bricktown in the late 80's and early 90's we were partying in those buildings. You could walk around, it wasn't unsafe... Just nobody around to bother you.

[Jim Kyle]

No, earlier the discussion was about what precipitated drastic action in downtown. Too many on here vilify while having a romanticized notion of what was going on. Posting pictures without overlaying with what actually happened leading up to decisions is misleading. Destroying everything wasn't right, but it was desperate times and circumstances that helped create the environment that called to action. It is completely different now.

While I decry the destruction of the Criterion and the Huckins Hotel, not to mention the John A. Brown complex and Katz Drug -- a historic site if ever there was one in OKC -- I also have to be honest about what had happened to the CBD in the 50s.

The one and only time I was ever openly propositioned by another male was during my high school years, and it happened on Hudson across the street from the Hotel Black. With a group of friends, we were cruiusing downtown; this brawny fellow accosted us, and we were acutely uncomfortable. However when we refused and walked away, he didn't follow us.

During my college years, Little Louie's bar and "hotel" a block east of Grand and Broadway was known as the place to pick up girls. It was licensed as a hotel so that it could have a dance floor, but was actually a honky-tonk with a couple of rooms in the back that one reportedly could rent by the hour. The Silver Lounge, in the basement of the Hudson Hotel, had a similar reputation but for a much high-class clientele. Grand itself, at night, was a bar district, as was the block of Broadway between Grand and Main (where the Little White Cloud held sway). California and Reno, however, were simply Skid Row.

Main Street itself was not exactly exempt. The second floors of many respected business establishments held seedy hotels and offices of fly-by-night companies.

When I became the Oklahoman's police reporter in the late 50s, things had become much worse. As others have pointed out, Grand, California, and Reno had become high-crime areas. One popular detective was shot and almost killed at a Chinese restaurant (the Golden Pheasant) located just south of Main, on Broadway. The only thing that saved him from the perp's bullet was that it hit his badge, deflecting it away from his heart. His attacker managed to "fall upstairs" en route from the cafe to a waiting police car. And that wasn't especially unusual for downtown in those years...

The wholesale destruction was intended, in large part, to eliminate all that rot from the CBD so it could be replaced by something much better. Unfortunately that replacement took some 40 years to begin happening! And meanwhile, we had destroyed more than 90% of our too-short history...

[hoya]

We all wish that history would have played out a little differently. I think what Rover is saying is that it wouldn't just be the history of building demolition that would have to change, you'd have to change a lot of the social factors that led to the building demolition. People didn't just decide to tear down a bunch of cool old buildings just for the hell of it.

[UnFrSaKn]

During my college years, Little Louie's bar and "hotel" a block east of Grand and Broadway was known as the place to pick up girls. It was licensed as a hotel so that it could have a dance floor, but was actually a honky-tonk with a couple of rooms in the back that one reportedly could rent by the hour. The Silver Lounge, in the basement of the Hudson Hotel, had a similar reputation but for a much high-class clientele. Grand itself, at night, was a bar district, as was the block of Broadway between Grand and Main (where the Little White Cloud held sway). California and Reno, however, were simply Skid Row.

Hudson Hotel in early 70's.



StreetView


60's?

[Jim Kyle]

Obviously I misremembered the name of the lounge. "Silver" may have been the one in the Black; "Mirror" was the one with the reputation.

[UnFrSaKn]

I noticed that but thought I should let you mention it first. Funny how details can change and get switched.

[Pete]

People who aren't old enough to remember can't appreciate how bad things were downtown in the 60's and 70's.

The only time my family ever went down there was to pick up my grandmother at the train station. And we got in and out of there very quickly.

When the Myriad opened in 1972, it provided the only other reason to go down there. But believe me, you went to the event (usually Blazers hockey) and did nothing else in the area.

[Jim Kyle]

I noticed that but thought I should let you mention it first. Funny how details can change and get switched.

At 82, I can always claim a senior moment... Was it Mark Twain, or Will Rogers, who said, "It ain't the things we don't know that get us in trouble; it's the things we do know that just ain't so"?

[CuatrodeMayo]

a "ramrod inn".

Well I learned a new term today. Thank you The Internet.

[soonerguru]

I'm not a huge fan of seedy, but a little seedy is to be expected in a city, right? I'm definitely not a fan of razing entire neighborhoods to sanitize them.

[BDP]

The wholesale destruction was intended, in large part, to eliminate all that rot from the CBD so it could be replaced by something much better. Unfortunately that replacement took some 40 years to begin happening! And meanwhile, we had destroyed more than 90% of our too-short history...

And even still, we must have destroyed the wrong things, because it wasnt enough to avoid still doing it today.

[Bellaboo]

Well I learned a new term today. Thank you The Internet.

They were also called a 'get and go'.....

[UnFrSaKn]

a "ramrod inn"

Well I learned a new term today. Thank you The Internet.

You mean Oklahoma City in the 50's wasn't a giant version of Mayberry that I imagined?

[UnFrSaKn]

Speaking of restoring the Hotel Black sign...

http://www.okctalk.com/other-urban-d...tml#post674712

Maybe the same can happen here with a brand new sign the way it will on AA.