Streetcar

[soonerguru]

Could be a combo of both. I just know it seems the tide is changing with city leaders, the council, AA, and Bricktown. Sounds like the only ones for it is Midtown. However, We definitely don't want the bus transfer center in the middle of the entertainment/tourist area. It was moved for a reason.

Do you represent a downtown enterprise? I cannot imagine you not wanting streetcar service in your area if you cater to tourists.

[okcboy]

I'm a part of some concerned downtown stakeholders. Its looks good in theory. The devil is in the details. The populous voted for the MAPS
Brand and the success we have had with it. They also gave the right for the council to manipulate or cancel any project they feel needs to be changed
if in its in the best interest of the city with five votes. So yes they voted for transit, but also voted the confidence in the council to make changes as needed.

[CaptDave]

Could be a combo of both. I just know it seems the tide is changing with city leaders, the council, AA, and Bricktown. Sounds like the only ones for it is Midtown. However, We definitely don't want the bus transfer center in the middle of the entertainment/tourist area. It was moved for a reason.

Maybe I guess. From everything I have seen and heard, the only ones really opposed to the streetcar are worried about keeping parking lots full or have some other vested interest in maintaining the status quo. It's too bad there sometimes seems to be a concerted effort to stall or prevent progress in OKC for the personal gain of a few. But that is not unique to OKC. The best thing is, the voters have spoken, funds are being collected now, plans are well in progress, and in a few years, OKC will join other forward thinking cities in the US with a new option for people to get around downtown.

[Hutch]

I understand all points. Just too many immediate transit needs and too many questions and unknowns out there to support a streetcar.

So you don't support the streetcar...but you do support BRT. Since the FGS System Plan calls for BRT to connect to the Intermodal Hub, then I assume you support acquisition and redevelopment of Santa Fe Station. Is that correct?

[betts]

So, here's some information that should reassure you.

Streetcars do NOT require a dedicated lane. They share a lane with cars. Streetcars are quieter than buses. They don't have fumes. Streetcars in many cities have increased transit ridership over buses manyfold, which brings customers into Bricktown. People will want to park in the many parking lots behind Bricktown so they can ride the streetcar to amenities rather than having to look for a parking space near their destination. That will increase the likelihood that they eat their meal in Bricktown or use Bricktown amenities. It will decrease congestion of cars roaming Bricktown looking for an open parking space. I know about that because I used to be one of those roamers, before I moved close enough to walk. People will want to stay at the hotels in Bricktown because they will have access to transit that will get them around downtown. That will make them more likely to dine and/or shop in Bricktown.

[CaptDave]

So you don't support the streetcar...but you do support BRT. Since the FGS System Plan calls for BRT to connect to the Intermodal Hub, then I assume you support acquisition and redevelopment of Santa Fe Station. Is that correct?

Setting the conditions for OKC to have an intermodal hub like other cities is something I think is often overlooked when people discuss MAPS3. The streetcar is going to be great, but the getting the hub facility established will be another great step forward for central OK. The MAPS3 Streetcar and Transit project may turn out to be the most transformative part of the entire slate.

[okcboy]

The Hub selection is too small IMO. I'm for acquisition for the right reasons. This is a take for control ED case. There is no solidified use. It is already being used as a train depot with a lease in place and the owners are willing to partner with the city on any furture needs if neccessary. I believe in private property rights and justified takes. Not ones based on studies, dreams, and no money (for future modes). The hub is not needed for the streetcar and the other modes we have been discussing for over 30 years and still discussing. We have been turned down twice now for tiger grants and the political future for rail looks very grim.

[betts]

Were the city council to make any significant changes in how they allocate funds for MAPS, that would be the end of MAPS as we know it. People would not vote for money for an RTD or improved transit of any sort either, sadly, because all of a sudden, voters would feel they couldn't trust the city council to honor their wishes. I've been one of the biggest MAPS supporters around, I campaigned hard for MAPS for the Chesapeake Arena and MAPS 3, but I would have to vote against any further use of tax funds. Why should we give money to a city council if we cannot trust them to use it in the way we were told they would? Most of us who support the streetcar also support improving the bus system and developing commuter rail. It would be a very sad day for Oklahoma City if we couldn't get voters to pass taxes to improve transit, or to build anything new once MAPS 3 is over.

[okcboy]

I have been told by some influential people that this is the last as well because of this type of thinking. The citizens gave the city council the confidence to make
changes as needed and that should be respected and the citizens should support that.

[betts]

I hope this is not too much to post, Steve. But I don't know if people always click on the links, and this information is close to the bottom of your article. People with ADD may never get there. So, forgive me Steve if I over quote. I am including the link.

So, from a very interesting article by Steve Lackmeyer, which merits reading in its entirety, we find this quote:

A Streetcar to the Future? | News OK

At some point, there seems to be a disconnect. Because if the truth is told, the young professionals seeking to live, work and play downtown are overwhelmingly pro-streetcar. And the students set to move downtown with the OCU law school also are reported by none other than Leslie Batchelor, attorney for the Urban Renewal Authority, as being very excited about having a streetcar pass their new campus at the old Central High at NW 7 and Robinson.
So the question is, are we building a city for those who are in their 40s (like me) to people in their 70s (like Nichols) and those in between (most of those on the Automobile Alley Association board)?
Or are we building a city for the young professionals, students and young families bringing life to downtown via its shops and restaurants, festivals (H&8th), outdoor movies and concerts at the Myriad Gardens and recreation along the Oklahoma River?
It’s an awkward question to ask, because quite frankly, it’s that first group that has really given downtown a boost via generous investment. But without that second group, the investment takes no life.

[betts]

I have been told by some influential people that this is the last as well because of this type of thinking. The citizens gave the city council the confidence to make
changes as needed and that should be respected and the citizens should support that.

Just as you don't support ED, even though it is a legal process, I do not support the city council's right to do anything but make minor changes to what we the voters chose. Sometimes things that are important to us give us a different perspective from those to whom it's not important. If a city councilman doesn't care about MAPS, doesn't care about what the citizens wanted when they voted, then perhaps they feel justified changing things to suit their personal wishes. That reminds me more of a dictatorship than a democracy though. I have no legal recourse if they choose to become dictatorial, but I can campaign against them and I can choose to vote against them or their ballot items.

[CaptDave]

The Hub Selection is too small IMO. I'm for acquisition for the right reasons. This is a take for control ED case. There is no solidified use. It is already being used as a train depot with a lease in place and the owners are willing to partner with the city on any furture needs if neccessary. I believe in private property rights and justified takes. Not ones based on studies, dreams, and no money (for future modes). The hub is not needed for the streetcar and the other modes we have been discussing for over 30 years and still discussing. We have been turned down twice now for tiger grants and the political future for rail looks very grim.

I certainly do not think we are 30 years away from having commuter rail service in OKC. Just because the city's TIGER application was turned down before we had shown the political will to take effective steps to improving transit does not mean that is a permanent situation. In fact, I would argue OKC is far more likely to be approved once we have demonstrated the intent and some action. Designating and acquiring the Santa Fe Depot as the transit hub for central OK is an integral part of improving transit. It is silly to maintain the norm of being reactive when the opportunity to proactively work toward improving all modes of transit is right in front of us. Of course whomever owns the station should be compensated at market rates - I would say it is an example of OKC's past short sightedness it was ever allowed to fall into disrepair and private ownership once the Sante Fe RR no longer wanted it.

The future of passenger rail transport is anything but grim - all over the United States there are real efforts underway to improve service and reestablish service as required. North Carolina is increasing its DOT run rail service frequency, Amtrak Virginia is wildy successful, the rail service radiating from Chicago is rapidly improving as speed and frequemcy increases. All it takes is for people to get away from OKC to realize how far behind we are regarding transportation. Unfortunately a few have profited obscenely while the city and state fell behind and they are going to hold on for dear life and squeeze every penny out they can. It has a long way to go but the attitude of the next generation of voters appears to be very different from those that have kept Sen Inhofe and others in office. The pure folly of subsidizing and facilitating the dependence of Americans on the automobile is becoming more clear. People are waking up and realizing the foolishness of destroying a formerly robust mode of transportation.

[okcboy]

Its just not the time. More immediate concerns need to be addressed. Although not as "cool", if done right the people downtown could use BRT to accomplish
the same goals as a streetcar would provide. Downtown is snowballing and doesn't need a streetcar for furture investment. We have been doing that work by our bootstraps for the past 25 years and all the hard work is paying off. We will continue to prosper and develop at a rapid rate in spite.

[CaptDave]

I have been told by some influential people that this is the last as well because of this type of thinking. The citizens gave the city council the confidence to make changes as needed and that should be respected and the citizens should support that.

That last sentence is pure male bovine feces and anyone with a brain understands that. Of course one can make the purely legal case the voters only approved a penny sales tax. But the practical truth is the voters approved that tax for very specific reasons. Most people aren't crazy over every MAPS3 project but they accept them so they can get something they do value. Perfect example of give and take and has benefitted OKC in ways no one could have imagined when the first MAPS was approved.

[okcboy]

Just as you don't support ED, even though it is a legal process, I do not support the city council's right to do anything but make minor changes to what we the voters chose. Sometimes things that are important to us give us a different perspective from those to whom it's not important. If a city councilman doesn't care about MAPS, doesn't care about what the citizens wanted when they voted, then perhaps they feel justified changing things to suit their personal wishes. That reminds me more of a dictatorship than a democracy though. I have no legal recourse if they choose to become dictatorial, but I can campaign against them and I can choose to vote against them or their ballot items.

When you voted for MAPS you gave them that right. Now your going against something you voted for. Thats how the ballot was written.

[CaptDave]

When you voted for MAPS you gave them that right. Now your going against something you voted for. Thats how the ballot was written.

I've heard that scare tactic before. Woe be unto the politician who really thinks that will fly. Fortunately, the vast majority of the city council, and certainly Mayor Cornett, understand this practical fact.

[betts]

As Hutch said, BRT is designed for longer distance travel. It requires its own lane, and I don't think you want to give a lane up in Bricktown or spend the money to build another lane just for buses on I-40 or the Broadway extension. BRT in Bricktown and downtown would simply end up being more modern looking trollies, with equally dismal ridership, no doubt. The voters didn't vote for a streetcar for economic development. They voted for it as transit. Downtown has become a kind of playground for its citizens and visitors. When I voted for a streetcar, I voted for a means to travel around Bricktown, downtown and up to Midtown so people didn't have to worry about driving in downtown traffic, so they could park for the day or evening and relax and enjoy moving between amenities without needing a car. Bricktown MAY have developed and prospered without the streetcar, but the main reason you are prospering is MAPS. Bricktown without a canal, a ballpark or a nearby arena would not be anything like it is today. Deep Deuce and its population which supports Bricktown would not be there if not for MAPS. The merchants of Bricktown owe the taxpayers for their support, via MAPS, as much as anything when crediting "work by our bootstraps". What is MAPS if not a city pulling itself up by its bootstraps? The merchants of Bricktown should in turn support the citizens of Oklahoma City and their expressed desire for a streetcar, one of the most popular of the MAPS projects per voter polls.

[okcboy]

I've heard that scare tactic before. Woe be unto the politician who really thinks that will fly. Fortunately, the vast majority of the city council, and certainly Mayor Cornett, understand this practical fact.

The reality is that is was written as such. Ask your councilman or Steve. The council has the ultimate right to change, modify, or abolish, with 5 votes on any Tuesday. Thats the way it was presented to the people. Sure it would take political courage but they have that power and we gave it to them by voting yes.

[betts]

And you think that's right, that it's OK? That the voters' will doesn't matter? Legal is semantics. Ethical is doing what's right.

[okcboy]

As Hutch said, BRT is designed for longer distance travel. It requires its own lane, and I don't think you want to give a lane up in Bricktown or spend the money to build another lane just for buses on I-40 or the Broadway extension. BRT in Bricktown and downtown would simply end up being more modern looking trollies, with equally dismal ridership, no doubt. The voters didn't vote for a streetcar for economic development. They voted for it as transit. Downtown has become a kind of playground for its citizens and visitors. When I voted for a streetcar, I voted for a means to travel around Bricktown, downtown and up to Midtown so people didn't have to worry about driving in downtown traffic, so they could park for the day or evening and relax and enjoy moving between amenities without needing a car. Bricktown MAY have developed and prospered without the streetcar, but the main reason you are prospering is MAPS. Bricktown without a canal, a ballpark or a nearby arena would not be anything like it is today. Deep Deuce and its population which supports Bricktown would not be there if not for MAPS. The merchants of Bricktown owe the taxpayers for their support, via MAPS, as much as anything when crediting "work by our bootstraps". What is MAPS if not a city pulling itself up by its bootstraps? The merchants of Bricktown should in turn support the citizens of Oklahoma City and their expressed desire for a streetcar, one of the most popular of the MAPS projects per voter polls.

Bricktown was actually a major catalyst in getting MAPS 1 to pass. Jim Brewer raised $50k in 3 days to give the chamber start up monies for the yes campaign because they didn't have the immediate funds. At the time, the public could see hope to come downtown because of what Bricktown was doing. MAPS 1 passing came because of this. Bricktown is very appreciative of the public support but has also done a lot by the bootstraps way before MAPS 1 and to this day. Unless you are in the trenches daily its hard to see. The citizens have been repaid many times over on the investment in the canal that was actually paid by the interest made on the total MAPS monies received. So basically we got a free canal and 30% of MAPS 1 money came from people who live outside the city limits. This is the genius in the MAPS program.

[okcboy]

And you think that's right, that it's OK? That the voters' will doesn't matter? Legal is semantics. Ethical is doing what's right.

No not really ok, but we told them they can.

[Just the facts]

Amen Sid.

[catch22]

No not really ok, but we told them they can.

That quite simply will not happen.

[CaptDave]

The reality is that is was written as such. Ask your councilman or Steve. The council has the ultimate right to change, modify, or abolish, with 5 votes on any Tuesday. Thats the way it was presented to the people. Sure it would take political courage but they have that power and we gave it to them by voting yes.

Political courage to break the public trust and kill MAPS? Interesting way to look at it. Political suicide not to mention pathological stupidity is more accurate I think. Where on earth did you get that KoolAid?

Sure there would be fringe elements that would cheer that sort of lunacy on, but the vast majority of Oklahoma City citizens are fairly happy with what MAPS has accomplished even considering a few bumps along the way. I cannot imagine anyone being so deranged as to really think that would be good for Oklahoma City. I know exactly what the resolution says and while you are technically correct, it would be a selfish act of someone with self serving motivations and a very narrow view or self interest to suggest or support such an action.

I think MAPS IV is likely to be written a bit differently from III. But anyone who wanted or supported MAPS III to get a convention center had better realize it was other projects, namely the streetcar and river improvements, that were far more popular and carried the vote. I was not particularly enamored of the fairgrounds building in MAPS 3, but I had enough sense to not cut off my nose to spite my face. By doing so, the streetcar I am most excited about was approved and funded.

(And I have had conversations with my councilman and understand exactly where he stands.)

[catch22]

Political courage to break the public trust and kill MAPS? Interesting way to look at it. Political suicide not to mention pathological stupidity. Sure there would be fringe elements that would cheer that sort of lunacy on, but the vast majority of Oklahoma City citizens are fairly happy with what MAPS has accomplished even considering a few bumps along the way. Where on earth did you get that KoolAid? I cannot imagine anyone being so deranged as to really think that would be good for Oklahoma City. I know exactly what the resolution says and while you are technically correct, it would be a selfish act of someone with self serving motivations and a very narrow view or self interest to suggest or support such an action.

Exactly. Just because someone has the gun and the bullet to commit political suicide does not mean the entire council will pick up the gun and take their turns. The fact this is even being discussed is comical.