Streetcar

[betts]

Sounds good in theory. But BRT is much more sophisticated than current busses, can react to pedestrian and cars needs, and can be more flexible. They are doing
construction now on Sheridan. Go down there and pretend that we have a designated streetcar lane and how happy that experience makes you. Streetcars will not eliminate car traffic to and from downtown. Its just a circulator that will increase the congestion by just moving the people around that are already there. OKC is a car society and will always want close, convenient, and safe parking regardless. All this is a trolley ride around downtown OKC at the expense of more important and immediate transit needs. It just looks "cooler".

I disagree with every part of your post. BRT requires a dedicated lane to actually be unique and rapid, a very expensive prospect. Where are you going to find a lane to dedicate anywhere in downtown OKC? And why would you want it there anyway, since most people are going shorter distances. Streetcars share their lane with traffic. And the reason Oklahoma City is a car driven society is because there haven't been any other options for over 50 years, short of buses (which most people here don't want to ride) and the ghastly Bricktown trollies which were uncomfortable, unreliable and had no discernible route. You're completely out of touch with what many city dwellers want nowadays - to be as car free as possible. Read Steve Lackmeyers most recent article and inform yourself. Why are there so many streetcars planned in US cities? Because people visit those cities that already have streetcars and see how well they work.

[okcboy]

Bus Rapid Transit is not a short-haul, frequent-stop transit mode. It isn't used for local transit service in core areas. It's the bus equivalent of commuter rail and is used for as a long-haul transit mode in dedicated lanes on highways and major 4 to 6 lane arterials. It's well suited for providing transit service down Northwest Expressway and Classen Boulevard to the Intermodal Hub, at which point riders would transfer to the streetcar to get within walking distance of their final destination downtown.

Thats not what I experienced on the KC trip.

[Spartan]

One very cool aspect of "flipping" the route is it provides an opportunity for a rider to jump off at the crossing point and hop on another streetcar running the other direction. This enables a rider to shorten their trip if desired and largely negates all the talk of being "forced" to ride the entire loop on a return trip. Once again, no big deal. People routinely make transfers on transit systems around the world.

A little imagination reveals a few opportunities like that on Zeta. In fact, the "flip" may even present an opportunity to operate two loops independently of the other if turnouts can be installed where the route crosses. Might be handy for special events in downtown that might close streets - I am thinking of significant events like the marathon or rmaybe a NBA Championship parade..

I think the reason for flipping the track is to avoid a mine field of utilities on one side of Robinson, but we should look into how costly it would be because I think it's worth it to keep the streetcar on the insides of the block.

[Spartan]

OKC City Council please reconsider the streetcar and discuss a new sophisticated BRT downtown circulator with convenient and clean stops. Provide digital efficient frequency timing, great signage and image, and an extensive marketing effort. Then connect this to the airport and other city attractions as well as serve all city
areas that are in need of quality transit.

We'll spend just as much on BRT and end up compromising the service quality and rider experience.

[CaptDave]

I think the reason for flipping the track is to avoid a mine field of utilities on one side of Robinson, but we should look into how costly it would be because I think it's worth it to keep the streetcar on the insides of the block.

The reason stated for incorporating the flip was to serve the civic/arts district and still serve Automobile Alley. After seeing the route and thinking about it, it makes sense. Utility issues was the reason for reversing the direction of travel on Robinson. Evidently there is a very large utility bunker somewhere under the northbound lane of Robinson that would be extremely expensive and disruptive to relocate. That is a situation that could occcur on nearly any route, but the solution was to adapt the routes studied a little to eliminate that issue.

[okcboy]

The streetcar concept has legs if done right at the right time. Their are more important needs to our city's transit than to use all of the monies to build a few miles
of streetcar that might or might not work. Could or could not have the right route. Could ease of could increase congestion. We all agree it would be convenient, cool, and fun for tourist and downtowners. If this is the reason for it then just come out lets admit it. But what about everyone else in the city that needs transit.

[Hutch]

OKC City Council please reconsider the streetcar and discuss a new sophisticated BRT downtown circulator with convenient and clean stops. Provide digital efficient frequency timing, great signage and image, and an extensive marketing effort. Then connect this to the airport and other city attractions as well as serve all city
areas that are in need of quality transit.

Again, BRT does not function as a local downtown circulator. And since BRT can cost more than commuter rail to implement, we'll probably want to consider it for long-haul transit service only to those areas where we can't develop commuter rail service, like out Northwest Expressway or Hefner Parkway. The airport will be best served in the future with a commuter rail line to the Intermodal Hub.

[CaptDave]

We are not using "all of the monies" to build the streetcar. We are using the funds provided by OKC voters in the MAPS3 vote specifically for a downtown streetcar. Nothing more and it damn well better not be any less. This streetcar does not negatively impact OKC transit in any way. It is the first step to building a better transit system for the OKC metropolitan region which will include "everyone else in the city that needs transit". To accomplish this goal required a decision to be made on the first step - the MAPS3 streetcar is that first step.

[betts]

I believe the utility bunker belongs to Trigen and we're being told it would be very expensive and problematic to move - probably too expensive to justify. Any route is going to be less than perfect, but as I said, I walked this one and don't think we're asking too much of our citizens and visitors. And I don't think it will affect usage to any significant degree.

[Hutch]

But what about everyone else in the city that needs transit.

That's what we're all working towards...a comprehensive regional transit system for all...just like DART in Dallas or Denver RTD or UTA in Salt Lake City. Here's ACOG's website with information about all of the planning processes and necessary technical studies that have been and are taking place to get us to that goal:

ACOG Regional Transit

[betts]

We will, however, need to begin a pedestrian-oriented culture downtown. We will need crosswalks and people will need to learn to honor them. I think we need to give our citizens credit for being teachable, both about how to interact with pedestrians and how to read transit maps.

[okcboy]

I meant all the monies in the transit budget. The MAX in KC, A Look at BRT: The Kansas City MAX | Metro Jacksonville, is doing great and supports downtown KC. As for commuter rail, light rail, high speed rail.... we started those talks 30 years ago and are still talking. We need to quit listening to all the propaganda and do something now that helps all of the immediate transit needs. Article today stated that 80% our hurting financially or without a job. Maybe this could be related to our transit system and the need for them to get a ride to work. A tourist/downtown trolley ride is not going to help this.

[CaptDave]

I meant all the monies in the transit budget. The MAX in KC, A Look at BRT: The Kansas City MAX | Metro Jacksonville, is doing great and supports downtown KC. As for commuter rail, light rail, high speed rail.... we started those talks 30 years ago and are still talking. We need to quit listening to all the propaganda and do something now that helps all of the immediate transit needs.

The MAPS3 Streetcar does not take any funds from the OKC transit budget. Period. Anyone stating the streetcar is redirecting funds away from current bus service is not being truthful and spreading propaganda. The additional operations and maintenance costs can and will be funded by current city taxes. This was very clearly and authoritatively stated by the OKC city manager.

I am continually surprised by a common assumption that streetcar advocates oppose fixing and improving our overall transit system. I hope the streetcar may even free up a bus or two to be used elsewhere in OKC.

The KC Max looks like a good service model for locations such as NW Expressway or others where rail is impractical and that type of service is part of the overall plan. In fact, DART used BRT from locations like Plano to downtown Dallas before the DART LRT line was built out that far.

[okcboy]

MAPS transit budget. Sorry I wasn't clear.

[okcboy]

Maintenance ?, operation ?, tax increases ?, subsidies ?, etc ?, etc ?, Thats a whole other unknown.

[soonerguru]

okcboy, I too think we need to improve our entire city's transit system. But the budget to do that was not provided in MAPS. The streetcar is going to do what it was proposed to do, link people to destinations throughout downtown, but it will also provide a new transit experience that could be greatly helpful in getting our citizens to support a more broad transit initiative. They haven't been supportive of transit -- with the exception of their vote for the streetcar. Hopefully we can leverage this to provide a permanent funding mechanism for mass transit in OKC with a successful deployment of the streetcar system.

[CaptDave]

Maintenance ?, operation ?, tax increases ?, subsidies ?, etc ?, etc ?, Thats a whole other unknown.

No increase in taxes are needed to fund operations and maintenance of the streetcar according to city staff. Certainly legitimate issues that should be addressed and have been throughout the planning process numerous times.

Subsidies? Every form of transportation in the United States is subsidized - including personal automobiles and city busses.

[okcboy]

I understand all points. Just too many immediate transit needs and too many questions and unknowns out there to support a streetcar.

[Urban Pioneer]

The people of this city voted for it and we're building it.

I'm personally glad that it has stirred passion, debate, analysis and further wishful thinking. Get in line and support another vote that has a bigger, comprehensive, and sustained funding source for a metro-wide solution.

The planning for such is underway.

[soonerguru]

I understand all points. Just too many immediate transit needs and too many questions and unknowns out there to support a streetcar.

Well, so we should just give the money back to the convention center? Why not have a good functioning downtown system and then hook it onto a better bus system? Why all or nothing? The favored streetcar route goes by the bus transfer center. Why not build on this instead of scrapping it? Should we all just take our marbles and go home? Do you really think you will gain favor with the voters -- who voted for the streetcar -- by scrapping it and asking them to support other transit? That makes no sense.

[CaptDave]

I understand all points. Just too many immediate transit needs and too many questions and unknowns out there to support a streetcar.

Legitimate problem for which you are reaching for the wrong solution. Of course it is your choice to support the first step to reaching our shared goal of improving transit in OKC - or not. The unfortunate thing is transit investment opponents will use every opportunity or sign of division among transit advocates to undermine efforts to improve it.

[betts]

Advertising on trains, advertising at stops, potential mixed use revenue associated with the streetcar barn, ticket fees, possible sale of naming rights/sponsorship. These are all potential sources of revenue generation for a streetcar. There are probably some others I'm not thinking of. Then lets look at other potential sources. Would you be more likely to book a convention in a city that has a streetcar that goes to restaurants and hotels around the downtown area? I would. In fact, I don't visit cities without good mass transit in the downtown or near my hotel, because I don't want to drive a car when I go to a strange city. So, we might get more or bigger conventions in OKC with a new convention center AND modern, quiet, handicap accessible mass transit near the convention center. Then there's transit-oriented development, which we know will occur, as another source of increase in city revenues. The OKC Modern gallery specifically stated that they chose to locate on Broadway because of the planned streetcar route and several other businesses stated the same. Now let's look at MAPS projects as a whole. None of them were designed to carry their own weight financially. MAPS was initiated because Mayor Norick understood that OKC's observable amenities and perceived quality of life were inadequate. He came up with a plan I still consider breathtaking: to build projects that were not self-supporting, but that would make the lives of the people in OKC a little more enjoyable, make our leisure time a little more special, make our city appealing to outsiders and hopefully stop the brain and talent drain that was occurring with our young adults. He succeeded beyond our wildest dreams. And, although none of these projects was self-supporting, they generated billions of dollars in economic development for the city. MAPS is responsible for the Devon Tower, for Deep Deuce, Midtown, businesses on Broadway, population increases higher than average and higher than expected, the Thunder (last but in no way the least). Our young people are staying in Oklahoma City in increasing numbers. People are actually willing to move here from other states - even California and other desirable locations. There's something very appealing about having a city we can be proud of - that we can enjoy showing off to our visitors, that makes people willing to move here (probably for the first time in our recent history - I was dragged here kicking and screaming 30 years ago myself). Parks and civic centers and ballparks and streetcars may not be part of most people's everyday lives, but they make our days off that much more special. And, almost by accident, they make the city money.

[Urban Pioneer]

I'd like to point out that we just had our 83rd public meeting on all of these issues. This is a downtown "circulator". Not a linear cross-city transit line.

We need to go to a grid on our bus system, consolidate the bus transfer center to the intermodal hub for long distance spoke overlay, build BRT up NW Expressway/Yukon, and commuter rail to the suburbs. OKC has a long way to go for making up lost time. Bickering over this majority voter mandated $130 million allocation is silly when we need somewhere between 1 Billion and 1.6 Billion to do it right.... Plus a dedicated operating funds source.

[CaptDave]

I'd like to point out that we just had our 83rd public meeting on all of these issues. This is a downtown "circulator". Not a linear cross-city transit line.

We need to go to a grid on our bus system, consolidate the bus transfer center to the intermodal hub for long distance spoke overlay, build BRT up NW Expressway/Yukon, and commuter rail to the suburbs. OKC has a long way to go for making up lost time. Bickering over this majority voter mandated $130 million allocation is silly when we need somewhere between 1 Billion and 1.6 Billion to do it right.... Plus a dedicated operating funds source.

okcboy and others,

I think you would have a very difficult time finding a streetcar advocate who did not want to improve our bus system also. That is something we agree with you wholeheartedly. The next step after getting the MAPS3 streetcar plan finalized and construction started is to concentrate on getting a long needed regional transit authority established followed by a dedicated funding source for all the modes outlined by UP.

[okcboy]

Could be a combo of both. I just know it seems the tide is changing with city leaders, the council, AA, and Bricktown. Sounds like the only ones for it is Midtown. However, We definitely don't want the bus transfer center in the middle of the entertainment/tourist area. It was moved for a reason.