Streetcar

[BigD Misey]

While i realize not all scenarios are the same, i wonder what model the ACOG's conclusions were derived from. What small closed loop system built in the citys core was referenced as example of a succesfully implemented rail system. I cant think of one. Portlands isnt, it is built to reach suburbia like mentioned earlier. Same with Dallas and Seattle and Chicago. The rail lines branch out to to the city extremeties in order to bring citizens in to downtown or to venues throughout the city. What is the touchstone?
I suppose this could be another trend setter milestone for OKC. Like Maps. Itll be interesting to see how it all works out.

[betts]

BigD, you have to start somewhere. We don't have the money to put a complete transit system together overnight. So, we will have a circulator which encompasses several neighborhoods, two different restaurant and bar districts, hotels, a convention center and park and the CBD. It will touch the existing bus transit center. The bus system will surely be revised and hopefully ultimately enlarged. The streetcar and bus system will function as our existing transit until we can add in commuter rail. Every city is different and methods of funding are different. I suspect the streetcar will end up being a transit game changer in OKC.

[Hutch]

While i realize not all scenarios are the same, i wonder what model the ACOG's conclusions were derived from. What small closed loop system built in the citys core was referenced as example of a succesfully implemented rail system. I cant think of one. Portlands isnt, it is built to reach suburbia like mentioned earlier. Same with Dallas and Seattle and Chicago. The rail lines branch out to to the city extremeties in order to bring citizens in to downtown or to venues throughout the city. What is the touchstone?
I suppose this could be another trend setter milestone for OKC. Like Maps. Itll be interesting to see how it all works out.

I think there's some confusion here with regard to the streetcar and its function as part of the larger regional transit system proposed under the 2006 Fixed Guideway Study.

Here's a copy of the System Plan from the FGS:

Attachment 4197

Carter-Burgess...now Jacobs Engineering...prepared the FGS on behalf of the Central Oklahoma Transportation and Parking Authority (COTPA) and not for ACOG. However, ACOG has recognized the FGS as the basis for its subsequent regional rail transit related studies, including the 2011 Intermodal Transportation Hub Study (Jacobs Engineering) and the Commuter Corridors Analysis (URS Corporation) that is currently underway.

The purpose of the streetcar system is to serve as a downtown circulator and the "last mile" component of the regional transit system. It is designed to move riders of the larger regional transit system from the Intermodal Hub to and from their final destinations within the greater downtown area.

The FGS proposes a Commuter Rail and Bus Rapid Transit system for providing regional transit service between the suburban outlying areas, such as Norman, Edmond, Midwest City, Mustang, Northwest Oklahoma City and the downtown core. Those components will provide the equivalent service you refer to for systems such as DART's Light Rail operations in Dallas.

The streetcar system is just the first step in the development of the regional transit system. But it is an important beginning, as it needs to be operational at the time the commuter rail service goes into effect so that riders of the regional system can get within easy walking distance of their final destinations in downtown.

[bluedogok]

From March of this year

GE Races Caterpillar on LNG Trains to Curb Buffett Cost - Bloomberg

Here is one that has already been converted and is in service in California

Vintage Train Saving More with CNG | HHPInsight.com

I think those old streamliner locomotives look so much better than the stacked boxes look of the current ones.

[Just the facts]

I think those old streamliner locomotives look so much better than the stacked boxes look of the current ones.

You're in luck because what was old is new again.

[soonerguru]

You're in luck because what was old is new again.

Larry Nichols wouldn't approve.

[Just the facts]

Larry Nichols wouldn't approve.

I'm sorry, I categorized his objection as a low-information fringe view in the minority, discarded it, and moved on to the next phase. Larry will just have to find a way to deal with it.

[BigD Misey]

Thanks, so it is a conponent of a larger planned commuter system? So now if the bus rroutes are fixed, folks...we have a viable , complete system.
Nice!

[Hutch]

Here's a great image of Portland's modern streetcar...I can't wait to see and ride ours.

[kevinpate]

Here's a great image of Portland's modern streetcar...I can't wait to see and ride ours.

soooooo ugly. oh, my eyes, my poor poor eyes.

</snark>

[Hutch]

How do I insert files so that the full image shows up in the post and not a thumbnail link?

[Hutch]

soooooo ugly. oh, my eyes, my poor poor eyes.

</snark>

And that's an image of a double-track section at an intersection...that's as complicated as it gets...and there's still no aesthetic issues. It's even less on the single-track couplet sections.

[Hutch]

Here's another great shot of the Portland system...this one's on a single-track couplet section.

[CaptDave]

Thanks, so it is a conponent of a larger planned commuter system? So now if the bus rroutes are fixed, folks...we have a viable , complete system.
Nice!

Exactly BigD! Once people realize how the MAPS3 streetcar fits into the larger matro transit picture, the majority understand why it is so important. OKC voters basically agreed to establish the foundation of a regional transit system that will incorporate all the modes Hutch outlined. Streetcar supporters are also some of the most vocal advocates for improving the bus system regardless of what some members of the city council imply.

[CaptDave]

Now that the couplet based Zeta route has moved to the forefront, here is an example of another couplet based streetcar route. Looks familiar doesn't it? Couplets expand the area served by the streetcar while maintaining an easy walk to the line. Legibility is not an issue and it is very easy to choose the "long" ride or the most direct ride to a destination by simply walking a block or two. I like the Zeta's "flip" or figure 8 because of the flexibility - it would be nice if another "flip" could be included in front of Santa Fe station to get the route to the front door of the transit hub. Also notice how the extension to a destination outside the foundational circulator is more linear.

[Spartan]

Here's another great shot of the Portland system...this one's on a single-track couplet section.

Yikes, that's so hideous. Larry Nichols save us from these awful wires and rails.

[bluedogok]

I did not realize that Carter-Burgess, the author of the FGS, was Jacobs. That explains a lot for me.

There have been quite a few mergers and buy outs of the big firms in recent years, sometimes it gets hard to keep up with all of them. When I was at Benham there was the sal to Atkins out of the UK, after I left there was the buy back from Atkins and back to the Benham name and then the sale to SAIC. A friend that I worked with at both firms in Austin went to work for a firm that was bought by PBS&J out of Orlando. A year or two ago Atkins bought them out, I told my friend "been there, done that, have the coffee mug" but Atkins is a much different company than when they bought Benham. Their makeup and divisions are much different than back in 2000. Even the first firm that I worked at in Austin (with 10 employees) sold out to a firm out of Scottsdale, Arizona. I knew of another form there that sold out to CTA

[David]

How do I insert files so that the full image shows up in the post and not a thumbnail link?

Once you attach the thumbnail it becomes a link to the full image, so using that link as the image in the post should do it.





Do ^ those work for everyone else?

[Just the facts]

How do I insert files so that the full image shows up in the post and not a thumbnail link?

When you select the insert picture icon go to the 'From URL' tab and enter the web addess of the photo (you can get it by right clicking on the photo and selecting Properties. Then copy the address). Then uncheck the 'Retreive remote file and reference locally' option. This will post the image in its orginal size and won't upload the picture to your photo album.

[soonerguru]

Once you attach the thumbnail it becomes a link to the full image, so using that link as the image in the post should do it.





Do ^ those work for everyone else?

OMGZ, how unsightly. How on earth can Larry Nichols allow such a visual atrocity to mar our beautiful city? This cannot happen here!

[UnFrSaKn]

A Streetcar to the Future? | News OK

[Just the facts]

Interesting choice of words by Steve.

Oklahoma City does not have the money to connect to every major part of downtown. So some areas will be winners, some will be losers.

To me this is implying that the 'winners' will be the parts of town that get the streetcar, but we know there is a group of people (Nichols and Auto Alley Association) who clearly believe the exact opposite and think the losers will be the ones that get the streetcar (as crazy as that sounds).

As for couplets - I still can't believe anyone is recommending couplets. Streetcars are built to create development along the route, not between the routes (kind of like how a shopping mall has a main 2-way spine and all the stores front it). Portland HAD to use couplets because they have one-way streets. In the areas where they don't have one-way streets they went with double track. It was a work-around solution for a specific problem they had, but OKC doesn't have that problem. You don't build work-arounds for a problem that doesn't exist.

[betts]

Almost every streetcar system being planned has significant couplets in their route. Utility location usually allows you to save money by using couplets, as one side of the street typically has significantly more utilities than the other. Utility relocation is one of the costliest aspects of creating a streetcar system. One streetcar wire is less obtrusive than two. Development will increase on side streets as they will create pedestrian "malls". Couplets are an agreeably less than perfect solution to several problems. I would argue that if youre going to do any couplets and you're worried about legibility, then keeping the whole route couplets makes it easier. You always know you have to walk one block over to pick up the other line. We will try to make sure that stops are lined up so that they are in the same location on both streets.

I just spent the week in Chicago riding the El and to change lines frequently meant doing some far more complicated walking than just walking over one block. If youre riding a subway in an unfamiliar city you have to look at a map to figure out where you can enter the underground. People seem to manage. This will be easier. Usually you will be able to see the stop on the other street.

[Hutch]

Another transit article just out by Steve. But this one is a treasure he dug up from 30 years ago...

Flashback: Oklahoma City Starts Pursuit of Citywide Passenger Rail Transit

Keep in mind this was 1982...the same time Dallas officials were making plans to begin their own light rail system, which would be approved by the voters in 1983 and develop into one of the most successful regional transit systems in the country. And here we are 30 years later still trying to get started. And the problems referenced in the article...high fuel prices...the rising cost of automobiles...and downtown parking problems...are even more magnified today.

Often, the risk is NOT in trying to do something...the risk is in NOT doing anything.

It's time everyone stop arguing about buses versus streetcars...or which is the perfect streetcar route...or wires versus CNG...or whether or not the nature of the MAPS process that brought us to this point had its flaws. It's time to move forward and get tracks in the ground for the streetcar and begin Oklahoma's first new rail transit system in more than 50 years. And it's time to move forward with creating a regional transit authority and seeking approval of a dedicated funding source to build our own comprehensive regional transit system.

Enough of the studies, discussions and debates. They've been going on now for 30 years. Time to take action and build something. Because the greatest risk is doing nothing at all.

[soonerguru]

Interesting choice of words by Steve.



To me this is implying that the 'winners' will be the parts of town that get the streetcar, but we know there is a group of people (Nichols and Auto Alley Association) who clearly believe the exact opposite and think the losers will be the ones that get the streetcar (as crazy as that sounds).

As for couplets - I still can't believe anyone is recommending couplets. Streetcars are built to create development along the route, not between the routes (kind of like how a shopping mall has a main 2-way spine and all the stores front it). Portland HAD to use couplets because they have one-way streets. In the areas where they don't have one-way streets they went with double track. It was a work-around solution for a specific problem they had, but OKC doesn't have that problem. You don't build work-arounds for a problem that doesn't exist.

Using this same argument, isn't it true the couplet will touch more streets, leading to development along more streets? I don't see why you're so opposed to this. it's really not a big deal.