Streetcar

[Doug Loudenback]

Based on language I'm assuming you're joking. I dont know how to characterize the intent or purpose of Steve's recent article, so how much more do you want me to take back my remarks? I am asking for more info because I want to get past this and accept the article.

But right now, it's either Larry Nichols or Steve Lackmeyer trying to make this into a big, negative story. I want to get along with everyone but i also want the streetcar. I'm trying to figure out what exactly Nichols did and what exactly Steve did.

Nick, see this post in this thread for what I was alluding to. But, as far as your simply wanting to "get past this and accept the article," your posts immediately preceding surely present no evidence of that. And, as for me merely joking, while I did say, "Nick, Nick, Nick ... can you say, "Jane, you ignorant slut?" (and I'm saying that with a smile on my face)," it wasn't intended to be entirely comical. If you want to figure out what Steve intended, well then, Nick,

Why not just send him a private message,
and ask him face to face, instead of being snarky about it here?

Wouldn't you suppose than an honorable man, particularly one, like you, who has heretofore said that he was Steve's friend, would do such a thing? If you want to figure out what Larry Nichols intended, you could do the same. Or not. He may not be one whom you've previously identified as a friend.

But, then, of course, friendship can be a feinting type of thing.

[Just the facts]

I for one am willing to note LN's dislike, take it under evaluation, discard it at as a low-information fringe view, and carry on.

[CaptDave]

^ That's pretty funny.

[Rover]

Okay cool lets do this for the convention center, then we can talk about just vetting each project. Until then bullish/$ walks.

The voters approve both and they both should be executed in the best way possible with all opinions on them vetted and all facts objectively presented. I agree about airing the facts about the CC, and every other approved project in an attempt to get the best value for the dollars we committed to.

[JohnH_in_OKC]

Here's another perspective on why our streetcars should not have catenary overhead lines. I lived in Europe for 3 years between Jan 1973 and December 1975. I visited all the great cities by my personal car or in late 1975 I had a 3 month Eurailpass & visited all the major cities and most of the countries of Western Europe & Hungary, the British/Irish Isles, and Northern Africa. I often took public transportation from the fantastic subways of Munich to the double decker buses of London. Even then, I thought catenary (overhead) electric lines were UGLY. I spent another summer in Europe on a Eurail Pass about 20 years ago.

If we somehow change our minds & go with a non-catenary electric system, we'll definitely be a focal point of America & the world. Even the DOT (Department of Transportation) might give us money to expand our system. The DOT will never give Oklahoma City any transportation developement money otherwise, especially with our contrarians of public funding James Lankford, Tom Coburn and James Inhofe representing us. (They're not quite as bad as Ernest Istook was, since he was always appropriating money for Salt Lake City & never fought very hard for money for Oklahoma City -- by the way, he is a Mormon.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZylrGjebnw

[Just the facts]

The type of system used in Bordeaux, FR cost 300% more per mile and was riddled with problems. Let some other American city with extra money do the experimenting. And it has been posted many times, the overhead wire and pole holding it up do far more than just provide electricity.

[CaptDave]

T

Here's another perspective on why our streetcars should not have catenary overhead lines. I lived in Europe for 3 years between Jan 1973 and December 1975. I visited all the great cities by my personal car or in late 1975 I had a 3 month Eurailpass & visited all the great cities and most of the countries of Western Europe the British/Irish Isles, and Northern Africa. I often took public transportation from the fantastic subways of Munich to the double decker buses of London. Even then, I thought catenary (overhead) electric lines were UGLY. I spent another summer in Europe on a Eurail Pass about 20 years ago.

Your opinion is not unlike that which a few others have stated. I think it is important to point out you are referring to experiences from 20 and 40 years ago. I agree with you that many older systems created quite a mess with the way the catenaries were constructed. Modern streetcars are very different from those systems. They are light years ahead of the tram I used in Naples 20 years ago. The modern catenary systems I have researched are very unobtrusive and serve a couple of secondary purposes from an urban design standpoint.

[Rover]

Okay cool lets do this for the convention center, then we can talk about just vetting each project. Until then bullish/$ walks.

By the way, I believe your buddy Steve has written several articles which put in question the size, use, and need for the convention center. Should everyone be up in arms he is biased towards no CC?

[Spartan]

Nick, see this post in this thread for what I was alluding to. But, as far as your simply wanting to "get past this and accept the article," your posts immediately preceding surely present no evidence of that. And, as for me merely joking, while I did say, "Nick, Nick, Nick ... can you say, "Jane, you ignorant slut?" (and I'm saying that with a smile on my face)," it wasn't intended to be entirely comical. If you want to figure out what Steve intended, well then, Nick,

Why not just send him a private message,
and ask him face to face, instead of being snarky about it here?

Wouldn't you suppose than an honorable man, particularly one, like you, who has heretofore said that he was Steve's friend, would do such a thing? If you want to figure out what Larry Nichols intended, you could do the same. Or not. He may not be one whom you've previously identified as a friend.

But, then, of course, friendship can be a feinting type of thing.

What are you talking about?

Do you have any germane comments?

[JohnH_in_OKC]

The type of system used in Bordeaux, FR cost 300% more per mile and was riddled with problems. Let some other American city with extra money do the experimenting. And it has been posted many times, the overhead wire and pole holding it up do far more than just provide electricity.

Whoa - I've just changed my mind.
I've been thinking more rationally about the expenses. Here's an even better solution:

We can power our streetcars, cars, trucks, & buses with fuel cells to get the same results, if we can process hydrogen cheaply enough. We wouldn't be using any fossil fuels to power the induction power underneath the streets or our home charging stations, and we wouldn't have to reconstruct our streets. I vote for a single wire catenary streetcar system until fuel cell systems are economically viable.

I guess I will have to revise my website, TechOK.org, in the next couple of weeks. It's time to revise it after 4 years.

[bluedogok]

While I was sitting at a light watching a RTD train go by I got to wondering about the propulsion methods, I know there are the DMU (diesel) and electric units like RTD has but are there any natural gas type units (NGMU)? Seems like as a fuel type it would be good for Oklahoma, just don't know if they even exist or if they are feasible.

[CaptDave]

They exist and mostly are in the experimental / development stage. There is only one in operation to my knowledge and I forget exactly where (sorry). They also negate some of the positive attributes of modern streetcars but mainly the noise. Acceleration will be slower with any internal combustion engine which in turn powers a generator which in turn powers traction motors. Electric streetcars have the advantage of the instant torque provided by electric motors.

[Just the facts]

I suspect there are all kinds of issues around powering a train with CNG. One advantage to diesel is that it doesn't explode or produce a flammable vapor. Could you imagine a train wreck with an engine packed with several thousand pounds on CNG.

[BoulderSooner]

They exist and mostly are in the experimental / development stage. There is only one in operation to my knowledge and I forget exactly where (sorry). They also negate some of the positive attributes of modern streetcars but mainly the noise. Acceleration will be slower with any internal combustion engine which in turn powers a generator which in turn powers traction motors. Electric streetcars have the advantage of the instant torque provided by electric motors.

they exist for trains? or streetcars?

[Just the facts]

From March of this year

GE Races Caterpillar on LNG Trains to Curb Buffett Cost - Bloomberg

Here is one that has already been converted and is in service in California

Vintage Train Saving More with CNG | HHPInsight.com

[BigD Misey]

So, ive been trying to fully encompass my thoughts (insignificant as they are, but i do frequent the Okc down town as i am right now typing this message at First edition espresso bar in downtown OKC!)
1.the route - so we are referencing Portland as a touchstone. Portlands rail connects clackamas, the delta sports complex and hillsboro. In doing so, they pass near multiple local comunities where local riders support the system as they go to work and to various points of interest in town. Meanwhile it also connect the airport to the downtown core and its various hotels. Both visitors and local citizens support the system. Even the first leg was a route outside the business corridor. With okc' proposed routes, being familiar with the lay of the city, its looks like they just want to circulate within the core. I would think that would limit support for the initial route.
2. As you can see in the videos above, innermixing the rail on regular streets, they use streets that are one way or they use dedicated easements. A lot of the time routes like in Chicago for instance are raised or lowered to avod the conflict cause by the convergence or cars, rail and pedestrian traffic trying to get on and off the rails. OKC is already in theprocess of converting many streets to two way traffic and which buisnesses are willing to dedicate a street facing side of their buisness to rail vs automobile traffic. I suspect this may be one of Mr. Nichols biggest objections, as Devon (who we all know has a vested interest in its immediate surrounding, per the arrangement with the city, spending millions on streets and such) has no storefronts or sees little benefit from pedestrian traffic. And i seriously doubt, like some are making comments, that Larry object to an electric rail as opposed to a carbon fuel solution. As if 5 miles or so of light rail were to threaten his multi billion Dollar company. I just thing he is expressing Devons lack of bennefit from this offering. (Especially considering they have the attached parking garage)
3. Every succesful rail is supported by a well functioning public transportation system. In most cities i visit with regularity, with theexception of Houston, i dont have to even worry about public transportation offerings. Seattle, Chicago, San Antonio. If i want to reach the business corridor or hot spots in the city, i can. Mostly by bus or trolly routes. Okc has one of the worst systems out there. I would much rather(and i suspect most visitors do) drive to the museum district and softball hall of fame and cowboy hall of fame and from the airport and to penn square mall, etc... Being from Dallas, another city we could use as a touchstone, the bus and rail system functions so well, in the 2 apartment and two houses ive lived in, i am just 3 or four blocks of walking, from accessing points of interests throughout town. The rail itself reaches into cities throughout the metroplex who have paid to be included in the routes. I suspect prtland and other new rail systems have the connected cities financialy supporting the rail system. Can Okc reach an agreement with a suburban city? or must Okc pay for it all? It would be quite the expense, especially since the city by practice, only builds after they gather the funds. Maybe a lease agreement is considered to use existing rails for BNSF in order to reach some other cities but,a different kind of chassis may be required to use those tracks.
All of theses things in my opinion are why the proposed streetcar will fail to reach expectations of the city.

[betts]

I think the confusion stems from the fact that in this thread we discuss streetcar, the Adventure Line and plans for commuter rail. We are not getting light rail in the foreseeable future. There have already been multiple meetings hosted by ACOG and attended by representatives from Edmond, Norman and Midwest City where they are working together toward a system to connect all these cities with commuter rail. The city has obtained a study suggesting ways to improve our bus system . When transit in a city is as bad as it is in OKC, you take steps to improve it. We are building a streetcar because that is what we have MAPS money for. We hope and plan for the streetcar to interface with both an improved bus system and ultimately commuter rail. But barring the city winning the lottery, we cannot do everything at once. I predict that in 10 years our transit system improvement will be getting to where it should be for a city this size. If Earnest Istook hadn't moved our streetcar money to SLC, we might be where they are now, transit wise

[Rover]

I guess I don't understand (from a downtown perspective) why we want commuter trains. Airport to downtown, yes. Bus terminal to downtown yes. Major entertainment AREAS to downtown yes. Sports venues to downtown, maybe. But why encourage expansion of the suburbs? It seems counter productive. Seems the system should radiate inside to out.

[Just the facts]

I guess I don't understand (from a downtown perspective) why we want commuter trains. Airport to downtown, yes. Bus terminal to downtown yes. Major entertainment AREAS to downtown yes. Sports venues to downtown, maybe. But why encourage expansion of the suburbs? It seems counter productive. Seems the system should radiate inside to out.

That is why it is important that the suburban train stations are not park and ride lots. Commuter rail should not be built to make urban sprawl more convenient. It should be used as a catalyst to re-urbanize the downtowns of the suburbs around OKC, or create downtowns where none have ever existed (TOD). Just like a strong urban core in OKC reduces expansion pressure on the fringes of OKC, a strong urban core in Norman/Moore/Edmond reduces expansion pressure on the fringes of Norman/Moore/Edmond. Plus, at some point gasoline prices are once again going to push household budgets to the limit and alternative forms of transportation are going to have to be in place to keep the wheels of commerce turning.

Check out Orenco Station in suburban Portland and imagine it in downtown Norman/Moore/Edmond - or even Choctaw.

http://www.orencostation.net/

The idea behind Orenco Station is still a work progress. Here is a pretty good summary of what worked and didn't work - and why.

http://www.planetizen.com/node/92

[BigD Misey]

When i want to go to the fair or to a mavs game, or to a concert at bass hall, i dont want the hassle of fighting traffic and parking...heck paying for parking. If I want to grab a drink afterward, the train and bus allow me the peace of mind that i wouldnt otherwise have. With traffic in the morning, it may be a little longer to get to work, but i can read the news and check emails and other things i wouldn't do while driving the same distance. Sometimes its level orange pollution days and its free. Sometimes i just want to support a "green" method of travel. Now think of me times 5,000 (a proposed fraction of workers who may choose to ride on a given day for the same reasons)and you can see the benefit of commuter rail and why larger cities have successful commuter rail systems.

[Spartan]

So, ive been trying to fully encompass my thoughts (insignificant as they are, but i do frequent the Okc down town as i am right now typing this message at First edition espresso bar in downtown OKC!)
1.the route - so we are referencing Portland as a touchstone. Portlands rail connects clackamas, the delta sports complex and hillsboro. In doing so, they pass near multiple local comunities where local riders support the system as they go to work and to various points of interest in town. Meanwhile it also connect the airport to the downtown core and its various hotels. Both visitors and local citizens support the system. Even the first leg was a route outside the business corridor. With okc' proposed routes, being familiar with the lay of the city, its looks like they just want to circulate within the core. I would think that would limit support for the initial route.
2. As you can see in the videos above, innermixing the rail on regular streets, they use streets that are one way or they use dedicated easements. A lot of the time routes like in Chicago for instance are raised or lowered to avod the conflict cause by the convergence or cars, rail and pedestrian traffic trying to get on and off the rails. OKC is already in theprocess of converting many streets to two way traffic and which buisnesses are willing to dedicate a street facing side of their buisness to rail vs automobile traffic. I suspect this may be one of Mr. Nichols biggest objections, as Devon (who we all know has a vested interest in its immediate surrounding, per the arrangement with the city, spending millions on streets and such) has no storefronts or sees little benefit from pedestrian traffic. And i seriously doubt, like some are making comments, that Larry object to an electric rail as opposed to a carbon fuel solution. As if 5 miles or so of light rail were to threaten his multi billion Dollar company. I just thing he is expressing Devons lack of bennefit from this offering. (Especially considering they have the attached parking garage)
3. Every succesful rail is supported by a well functioning public transportation system. In most cities i visit with regularity, with theexception of Houston, i dont have to even worry about public transportation offerings. Seattle, Chicago, San Antonio. If i want to reach the business corridor or hot spots in the city, i can. Mostly by bus or trolly routes. Okc has one of the worst systems out there. I would much rather(and i suspect most visitors do) drive to the museum district and softball hall of fame and cowboy hall of fame and from the airport and to penn square mall, etc... Being from Dallas, another city we could use as a touchstone, the bus and rail system functions so well, in the 2 apartment and two houses ive lived in, i am just 3 or four blocks of walking, from accessing points of interests throughout town. The rail itself reaches into cities throughout the metroplex who have paid to be included in the routes. I suspect prtland and other new rail systems have the connected cities financialy supporting the rail system. Can Okc reach an agreement with a suburban city? or must Okc pay for it all? It would be quite the expense, especially since the city by practice, only builds after they gather the funds. Maybe a lease agreement is considered to use existing rails for BNSF in order to reach some other cities but,a different kind of chassis may be required to use those tracks.
All of theses things in my opinion are why the proposed streetcar will fail to reach expectations of the city.

I think that right now, independently of anything going on politically, this is happening because some of these suburbs are very bullish on ED, and regional LRT will bring a lot of value. Downtown is becoming a bigger center, something that Norman and Edmond really want to be connected at the hip to.

However I don't think this is happening independently of politics, especially the streetcar. My gut tells me that as the streetcar project goes, this will go. A lot of people in the region will be watching this one MAPS project closely.

[CaptDave]

So, ive been trying to fully encompass my thoughts (insignificant as they are, but i do frequent the Okc down town as i am right now typing this message at First edition espresso bar in downtown OKC!)
1.the route - so we are referencing Portland as a touchstone. Portlands rail connects clackamas, the delta sports complex and hillsboro. In doing so, they pass near multiple local comunities where local riders support the system as they go to work and to various points of interest in town. Meanwhile it also connect the airport to the downtown core and its various hotels. Both visitors and local citizens support the system. Even the first leg was a route outside the business corridor. With okc' proposed routes, being familiar with the lay of the city, its looks like they just want to circulate within the core. I would think that would limit support for the initial route.

BigD - quick answer to your question. A downtown circulator is EXACTLY what thei first phase of the streetcar is intended to be. It will be the foundation of the comprehensive transit system outlined by the Fixed Guideway Study done by ACOG. Fixed Guideway Plan (FGP) | METRO Transit Providing Central Oklahoma Transportation & Bus Service Options

The MAPS3 streetcar has further refined that part of the FGS and come up with a workable route for the intended purpose. It truly is a "chicken and egg" question. Why build multiple modes of transit to reach downtown if you cannot get to your final destination without a long walk? The streetcar will provide that "last mile" service for future commuters and for current residents and workers downtown now.

[Urban Pioneer]

Here's another perspective on why our streetcars should not have catenary overhead lines. I lived in Europe for 3 years between Jan 1973 and December 1975. I visited all the great cities by my personal car or in late 1975 I had a 3 month Eurailpass & visited all the major cities and most of the countries of Western Europe & Hungary, the British/Irish Isles, and Northern Africa. I often took public transportation from the fantastic subways of Munich to the double decker buses of London. Even then, I thought catenary (overhead) electric lines were UGLY. I spent another summer in Europe on a Eurail Pass about 20 years ago.

If we somehow change our minds & go with a non-catenary electric system, we'll definitely be a focal point of America & the world. Even the DOT (Department of Transportation) might give us money to expand our system. The DOT will never give Oklahoma City any transportation developement money otherwise, especially with our contrarians of public funding James Lankford, Tom Coburn and James Inhofe representing us. (They're not quite as bad as Ernest Istook was, since he was always appropriating money for Salt Lake City & never fought very hard for money for Oklahoma City -- by the way, he is a Mormon.)

PRIMOVE by Bombardier - YouTube

John, thanks for posting this. One of our Subcommittee members actually went to the test track in Germany and actually rode the streetcar depicted. We have known about Larry Nichols concerns for several years now. He had a desire that this rail project be done "First Class".

We have avoided promoting any particular technology or company as it would appear improper. But we have fought to have a broad discussion about these potential opportunities.

I thought Steve's article was balanced and proper. I thought the copywriters for the headline didn't do such a good job and sensationalized what Larry Nichols was tring to convey. He wants a first class system worthy of our developing first class downtown.

The challenge is budget versus risk versus the limitations of our procurement process (restricted by state law).

I thought Steve did a good job with the article. If there was anything that I would have added, it is that some Subcommittee members (on their own dime) are travelling to far places to see some of these potentially promising technologies.

There is definitely an argument to be made for an overhead wire better defining a route in an urban context. But there is also something to be said for doing things First Class, if we can afford it.

[BoulderSooner]

There is definitely an argument to be made for an overhead wire better defining a route in an urban context. But there is also something to be said for doing things First Class, if we can afford it.

and you can make a good argument that those 2 things are not mutually exclusive

[CaptDave]

and you can make a good argument that those 2 things are not mutually exclusive

My exact thought - modern overhead catenary does not equate to antiquated. I wish I had rendering skills (and software!) so I could attempt to show what a catenary combined with Project 180 design might look like.