Adventure District Rail Line

[BoulderSooner]

2 things

on the issue of last mile service ... i'm sure the casino/horse track would be happy to support/run a shuttle circling along the attractions in the district


second IMHO this is a perfect OKC NE leg of a commuter line which would pair quite nicely with commuter service to the airport as a Maps 4 project

[CaptDave]

great job by steve covering this report

Indeed, this is the kind of work I am accustomed to from Steve. Nice job.

[CaptDave]

2 things

on the issue of last mile service ... i'm sure the casino/horse track would be happy to support/run a shuttle circling along the attractions in the district


second IMHO this is a perfect OKC NE leg of a commuter line which would pair quite nicely with commuter service to the airport as a Maps 4 project

My thoughts exactly - I think the shuttle is the easy solution and probably wouldn't cost the city a dime.

Your second statement is the reason I think we should pursue this. Use the existing infrastructure to learn what it takes to get this type of operation started and expand it to the commuter operations the Fixed Guideway Study called for.

[boitoirich]

Eventually, the modern streetcar is the way to go. This isn't for reasons of technology wars, but because of all of the options it's the only one that provides frequent service all day everyday.

The streetcar option costs about as much as the DMU commuter rail option, but it provides service on 30 minutes headways all day everyday (and frequency is freedom) rather than just during peak commuter times. Offering a commuter option is fine, but it ignores that there are people such as tourists who operate on their own schedule and may seek transit options during the late morning, early afternoon, in evenings, and on Sundays.

The option would also extend the core effectively to the Adventure District. All along the line are empty and low-value plots ready for development, and old neighborhoods suffering from high rates of vacancy and abandonment. The low cost of property would be an asset. It's not hard to forecast that a family might not want to spend as much as $2,000 a month to live in Deep Deuce when they can have access to the greater downtown area, its employment opportunities, and its entertainment amenities for much less than half the cost. The neighborhoods adjacent to the streetcar line would become ripe for reinvestment -- to a much greater degree than if we were to go with the commuter option.

The streetcar option also includes 10 stops rather than 3 or 5. Some of these stops are perfect for mid-sized TODs (specifically NE 4th St and NE 16th St). To the southwest of NE 16th St is a sparsely populated neighborhood of low-value homes along the Miramar Blvd spine. There is abundant land (and low property prices) to build multifamily units and townhouses, in addition to neighborhood scale retail and entertainment options. A streetcar along the Eastside would finally connect the area to the rest of the city, allow the area to gentrify and densify, and would be a catalyst to bringing sorely needed amenities to the area (especially to NE 23rd St).

Finally, there is the matter of operating costs. The study indicates that the DMU commuter option would provide just 4,464 hours of service at a cost $750 per hour, while the modern streetcar would provide 10,724 hours of service at a cost of $213 per hour.

4,464 x $750 = $3,348,000 for operating 5 stops during limited times only
10,724 x $213 = $2,284,212 for operating 10 stops all day everyday in 30 minutes intervals

A fast, frequent, relatively inexpensive transit option that connects to another important transit project the city is undertaking is a better option than a slower, less frequent, relatively more expensive transit option that is better suited for the suburbs than for inner city neighborhoods.

[BoulderSooner]

the street car option is most likely a no go because it would/could preclude future commuter rail to MWC/Tinker AFB

[Just the facts]

I don't see it working but if they want to give it shot - have at it.

[Tier2City]

the street car option is most likely a no go because it would/could preclude future commuter rail to MWC/Tinker AFB

Not necessarily. If the public transit agency had complete control of Segment 3 then control of both commuter rail to MWC/TAFB and the streetcar to the Adventure District would be by the same central control room/dispatch office. Specifically it would be easier to ensure there would be no conflict at a flat crossing of somekind of the two routes in the vicinty of Perry and NE 1st Street.

[boitoirich]

the street car option is most likely a no go because it would/could preclude future commuter rail to MWC/Tinker AFB

That's not true. Directly from Jacobs Engineering report: Streetcar track on the ADL line would be the same type and gauge as would be used for excursion trains or for DMUs. Therefore, streetcar vehicles could use the same tracks as DMUs or excursion trains. However, if a
streetcar line is electrified, the overhead wiring needs to be constructed at a sufficient height to allow clearance of other trains that might utilize the corridor, or would need to be deenergized when another type of train is using the tracks.

[CaptDave]

Eventually, the modern streetcar is the way to go. This isn't for reasons of technology wars, but because of all of the options it's the only one that provides frequent service all day everyday...........

Several excellent points in this post. One reason I think DMU's have a slight edge on the streetcar option is the ability to use them on a more externsive commuter rail system. The Adventure Line is along the same right of way that eventually turns into the Tinker/MWC lead. Additionally, I think DMU's will be the preferred vehicle to run from Will Rogers Airport to the Santa Fe hub.

By the same token, you cannot ignore the lower operating cost and frequency boitoirich pointed out. The streetcar based system also solves the "last mile" issue in the Adventure District. They could seemlessly transtion from the ORM right of way to 50th Street and on to the Zoo, Science Museum, Remington Park, and Cowboy Museum.

Several factors to balance on projects of this magnitude, but it is encouraging we are seriously considering these options.

[boitoirich]

CaptDave I think you're correct that DMU technology should be used to link to Tinker/MWC. This alignment provides a textbook example of what a commuter corridor looks like, so having commute-time service between the two is appropriate.

The ADL corridor is a different thing. It connects neighborhoods rather than employment centers. It provides tourists and locals car-free transit to the Adventure District and back downtown. Having this run on commuter schedules would make little to no sense, and using DMUs continuously throughout the day as if it were a light rail line would be prohibitively expensive. So because the technology conflicts between running the modern streetcar for ADL and DMU commuter rail for Tinker/MWC are easily surmountable, I just think it makes too much sense to utilize the streetcar option.

As for connecting to WRWA, I'm not sure which technology is going to be used but it should not matter much vis-a-vis the ADL. The ADL streetcar loops in front of the multimodal transit hub, so that would be a transfer station to WRWA in any case.

[BoulderSooner]

If the ne line becomes a commuter line dmu it will go to the hub

[venture]

I like BTR's idea that street car is the way to go for the ADL. I think a DMU us going to be too much for it to handle on a fairly "leisure" route. However, I really feel that this route would end up living or dying depending on the commuter rail option feeding it into the city. We also need to look at travel times up to the attractions. Commuter rail wise, there isn't going to be the population to really justify from that part to downtown. I do think if this gets push through as a street car, it'll really help boost the area economically like BTR mentioned.

The other thing is that it would be relatively inexpensive taking it up to the Cowboy HoF since there is enough shoulder space to put the track and avoid dealing with laying track in the road. I've updated my commuter rail map to reflect this line and also an extension up to the HoF to get an idea of how it would all look.



https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid...98947,0.129604

Purple Line = ADL
Blue Line = N MWC/Shawnee
Aqua Line = MWC/Tinker
Orange Line = Edmond/Guthrie

[boitoirich]

If the ne line becomes a commuter line dmu it will go to the hub

If the ADL is run on DMU commuter schedule, it might connect to the intermodal hub; Option C does not connect, but terminates at a Bricktown terminus. Also, there is nothing written that says the ADL has to go from the Adventure District all the way to the airport in one continuous line. If DMU is the best way to get to WRWA, then that should be pursued. However modern streetcar is likely far better for the ADL corridor, and it does connect to the transit hub, where passengers can transfer to the downtown streetcar, the bus system, Greyhound (eventually), commuter rail to Edmond/Norman/MWC, the airport line (whatever technology that may be), and the Heartland Flyer.

[CaptDave]

I have to admit Venture and BTR have just about changed my opinion on this one. I hadn't done the math on the operational costs and the ability to solve the "last mile" issue and provide a trip from Santa Fe all the way to the Zoo or Cowboy Museum with no transfers makes a lot of sense. I had a bit of tunnel vision on the trestle and connection into the transit hub and extending the ORM run. In the process, I missed a couple of big considerations. I think we should serve the people in that area well if we are going to make this kind of investment. I would be concerned about not limiting the ORM excursions if the streetcar is running on that right of way because they have done a lot of work to get the line where it is today. I am going to look at the study again and think about what Venture and BTR have brought to my attention.

(The trestle into the hub is going to be necessary regardless to provide access to the Tinker/MWC line.)

[boitoirich]

(The trestle into the hub is going to be necessary regardless to provide access to the Tinker/MWC line.)

The streetcar option leaves the trestle open by exiting the existing rail ROW at Russell M. Perry Ave heading south to E. Reno Ave, then arriving at the transit hub along EKG, before heading east along E Sheridan to return to Russell M Perry. That trestle is free for use by the Tinker/MWC commuter rail line.

[catch22]

Streetcar would essentially be a light rail line.

[Just the facts]

Streetcar would essentially be a light rail line.

In a lot of the French systems they operate as a streetcar in high density areas and either run directly in the street or along mews. Once they get out into the lower density areas that stations get further apart and they run in grassy medians or sholders at higher speeds. If you get a few minutes go to Google Earth and trace the tram paths in Orelans, FR.

[Spartan]

In a lot of the French systems they operate as a streetcar in high density areas and either run directly in the street or along mews. Once they get out into the lower density areas that stations get further apart and they run in grassy medians or sholders at higher speeds. If you get a few minutes go to Google Earth and trace the tram paths in Orelans, FR.

You know, I just never understood the value of spending more time on trams in Europe than North America. It doesn't have the same relevance, you know, but we have so many American streetcar cities now. New systems include Portland, Seattle, Tacoma, Tucson, Dallas, LA, Atlanta, KC, Cincinnati, etc. There are many, many more LRT cities.

[Just the facts]

The difference is that most American systems are built to encourage sprawl with large suburban park and ride lots. Why copy a system that doesn't do what we are trying to accomplish (or atleast what we say that we are trying to accomplish). I'm not sure the Sacramento system is something we want to emulate.

[AP]

My thoughts on a route that's dedicated to the main attractions and visitors. Notice I grabbed the Meridian hotel corridor.

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/ed...g.k9G940T_zVig

I'm glad you added the Meridian piece. I work out there and would LOVE that. It would make public transit the best option to get to work.

[OKCisOK4me]

My thoughts on a route that's dedicated to the main attractions and visitors. Notice I grabbed the Meridian hotel corridor.

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/ed...g.k9G940T_zVig

What is your route made up of? Commuter? Streetcar? Bus? Or light rail (highly doubt this due to cost)?

If streetcar, then why not on Exchange down to The Stockyards, then keep the alignment on SW 15th St? I think that would be more feasible.

[Urban Pioneer]

Why too long for "street car"? When they refer to it as street car, they mean "rapid streetcar". IE- essentially light rail.

[OKCisOK4me]

I'd prefer to see this as full-blown lightrail, yes. I wasn't building it using any budget, just what I think we should offer. I think the route is too long for streetcar. I'd rather see a simple express bus instead of lightrail wasn't an option.

Remember that the streetcar network in OKC in the early 19th century was more extensive mileage wise than the starter route we're building or the length of this route. I could see streetcar being feasible. But, yes, for the route you've drawn, if not a commuter route on existing track at various spots, then light rail would have to be used in that ROW.

[LakeEffect]

My thoughts on a route that's dedicated to the main attractions and visitors. Notice I grabbed the Meridian hotel corridor.

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/ed...g.k9G940T_zVig

Very nice. One unfortunate part of Meridian is that hotel stock north of the River. The line as imagined wouldn't get those people, but I think this is a great idea overall.

[Urban Pioneer]

"Rapid streetcar" is streetcars in light rail format going higher speeds and in its own right-of-way. The ADL study call for it in that form except in areas where in needs to go out of the right-of-way to meet FRA compliance in interacting with heavy rail.

So we are essentially proposing light rail as an alternative to "excursion" rail on the NE Line as you suggest. The only difference between standard light rail and standard streetcars are a smaller vehicle with less passenger capacity. Additional units can be added as needed.

Here is a link to the entire completed initial study that is going up for a vote tomorrow before city council. http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/view.as...fileid=2060457