Streetcar

[Rover]

I am curious in what order the board members view the streetcar system's PRIMARY purpose:

A. Economic Development,
B. People Movement, or
C. Image/quality of life

I think it sure affects the route placements and metrics of success.

[CaptDave]

Not sure about that now Rover. The route presentation showed economic development being weighted more than quality of life - but how does one quantify QOL other than looking at population numbers and destinations? Economic development potential is still difficult to predict, but likely easier than QOL.

Based on conversations I've had with subcommittee members, getting economic development included as a consideration was more difficult than one would think. Transit Oriented Development was disregarded without much thought in the early stages of the project. Now however, some are afraid it is the only thing being considered now that business interests have taken notice that TOD is a real thing and quality of life has seemingly been relegated to an afterthought. Fortunately the subcommittee seems to be maintaining a balanced approach regardless of external influences.

[Tier2City]

You're doing it again? Walker spine isn't only to serve HH, remember? It serves Heritage Hills, Mesta Park, Jefferson Park, and Paseo.

Doing what again? There's no point talking about those other neighborhoods if you can't get through Heritage Hills. Protesters remain very concerned about additional traffic in Heritage Hills (see pages 41 & 42 of http://s3.amazonaws.com/content.news...on%20Cards.pdf). The Alliance/OCURA is clearly sensitive to these concerns - see Page 33 of the new Midtown Urban Renewal Plan (http://ocura-ok.org/resources):

Additional Traffic Study
Consideration should be given by the City to study potential changes to traffic volume and patterns
in the Heritage Hills/Mesta Park neighborhoods that may be caused by increasing development and
density in the Midtown area. The establishment of a baseline condition may assist the City’s efforts of
balancing new development with the protection of existing development to the immediate north of
the Renewal Area. Such a study will also serve as an educational tool for concerned citizens in the area.

Will the Heritage Hills Board formally confirm that they want the streetcar running through their neighborhood? If not then getting up to 23rd is likely to have to be through the Classen Corridor - which happens to interface with neighborhoods that have a high number of households without cars. Seems a better prospect to me.

[Rover]

Not sure about that now Rover. The route presentation showed economic development being weighted more than quality of life - but how does one quantify QOL other than looking at population numbers and destinations? Economic development potential is still difficult to predict, but likely easier than QOL.

Based on conversations I've had with subcommittee members, getting economic development included as a consideration was more difficult than one would think. Transit Oriented Development was disregarded without much thought in the early stages of the project. Now however, some are afraid it is the only thing being considered now that business interests have taken notice that TOD is a real thing and quality of life has seemingly been relegated to an afterthought. Fortunately the subcommittee seems to be maintaining a balanced approach regardless of external influences.

The most successful projects in business have clearly defined goals and objectives before the implementation is begun. Hazy objectives mean loose targets and undefined success metrics from which to build on. And, it is usually impossible to have multiple poorly defined objectives creating the implementation plan.

[BoulderSooner]

if you can't get through HH there is no point of talking about that as a route ..

[CaptDave]

Looks like there is consensus favoring Zeta as the route to analyze more in depth.

[CaptDave]

An update to Larry Nichol's statements about the streetcar. Yesterday I heard someone say all Mr Nichols wants is for it to be a modern, quiet streetcar in which case I am in complete agreement with him. They are quiet by design and the proposed system will meet his (and most every streetcar advocate's) expectations and hopefully exceed them. I was glad to hear this because I still hadn't figured out why his comments seemed so negative - I think it was likely a simple matter of context. No mention of his personal preference regarding overhead wires, but I think it is possible his opinion might have changed or at least become less emphatic on that.

[JohnH_in_OKC]

Any streetcar system using catenary (overhead) lines will destroy the ambiance of our city. I agree with Larry Nichols and have advocated this for years. The excuse that OKC can't use "unproven" technology is just an excuse to do like everyone else. OKC should be a world leader and adopt a non-catenary wireless electric streetcar. Aesthetics DO matter. Here is my website (from 2009): TechOK.org

[LakeEffect]

Any streetcar system using catenary (overhead) lines will destroy the ambiance of our city. I agree with Larry Nichols and have advocated this for years. The excuse that OKC can't use "unproven" technology is just an excuse to do like everyone else. OKC should be a world leader and adopt a non-catenary wireless electric streetcar. Aesthetics DO matter. Here is my website (from 2009): TechOK.org

The "ambiance" of our city? We have overhead electric lines everywhere (except the core of downtown). Overheard catenary for streetcar will not be that intrusive, even on a double-tracked line. Check out my photo from Basel, Switzerland.

[catch22]

The "ambiance" of our city? We have overhead electric lines everywhere (except the core of downtown). Overheard catenary for streetcar will not be that intrusive, even on a double-tracked line. Check out my photo from Basel, Switzerland.

Absolutely, if anything it will ADD to the ambiance of the city. Real, physical, bonafide proof that we are not just a car city.

[warreng88]

Exactly, I would be more worried about the vacant and abandoned buildings that destroy the ambiance of our city than a few overhead wires.

[CaptDave]

While I agree with "Aesthetics DO matter"; I don't understand the destruction of OKC's ambiance argument against overhead power for the streetcar. I don't think overhead wires hurt Rome, Paris, Berlin, Naples, Portland, etc ambiance very much at all. If anything, I think the catenary and support poles adds to the cosmopolitan ambiance of a city.

The Project 180 redesign, even with its construction problems and reduced footprint, is a very nice scheme and the streetcar catenary can be incorporated into it very well. In fact, I wonder if anyone has thought about using P180 design elements in the sections of street and sidewalk along streetcar route that will be modified. If you are going to be pouring new concrete any way, might as well use the same material. After listening to Cathy O'Connors presentation on TIF's and BID's yesterday, I think that might be a good use for any available Downtown TIF funds. Augment MAPS3 funds with TIF funds for the specific purpose of covering the additional cost of conforming to the P180 design.

[Spartan]

Any streetcar system using catenary (overhead) lines will destroy the ambiance of our city. I agree with Larry Nichols and have advocated this for years. The excuse that OKC can't use "unproven" technology is just an excuse to do like everyone else. OKC should be a world leader and adopt a non-catenary wireless electric streetcar. Aesthetics DO matter. Here is my website (from 2009): TechOK.org

I agree aesthetics matter, but the streetcar will be an extremely positive part of the streetscape, unlike other wires. I like your ideas on your site, though.

The electric source should be whatever's cheapest.

[BDP]

Aesthetically, a streetcar with wires is still better than a lot of the junky, smelly, and noisy cars and trucks that use these same streets already. If anything, a modern street car is going to class it up.

[Spartan]

The opinion that overhead wires are ugly is not new. Come on, if you are a OCD perfectionist and want your city to be kind of a model for others, overhead wires are for 'those people' a no-brainer. Stop acting like he is issuing some brand new concern. Every city, in every country that has added streetcar (or bus) lines that incorporated overhead wires, there have been people protesting said wires. One of 'those people' are bound to be the CEO of a major corporation somewhere. We drew the lucky straw.

Let's get past the fact that there are plenty of people that don't like overhead wires (not just streetcar wires either). That doesn't indicate some kind of conspiracy or profit-driven motive.

The word plutocracy is used a lot by people who want to in a snapshot in time point at those who have money and any power (political, social, economic, whatever) and appeal to populist anti-elite sentiments. It's really gotten old hearing his name associated with that word. The man has worked hard building a company and doubly has put back and enormous amount of money into this city. The merchant class of Italy was known for this kind of activity and that class alone was responsible for the Renaissance of southern Europe in the 15th century. People with money aren't evil. Do they do bad things? You bet. But the Oklahoma City police blotter is full of people doing horrible things in this city every day. Meaning, we do and should already hold people like Larry up to a higher standard. That's not to say that power doesn't corrupt. It most certainly can. But being powerful and having a lot of money and an opinion shouldn't be an indictment on the man's ethics nor those of the civic groups he is involved with.

Ed's comment was wrong in part because there was discussions with stakeholders during the planning process. It was during the AA process and other meetings that I personally feel that the objective to please more and more developers and landowners emerged in ernst. I don't feel that they were left out of the conversation. Funding is another matter and I do agree that next time, a project as precise and is uniquely targeted for economic development as this streetcar is, a more structured funding mechanism should be in place or installed after the vote. A BID seems to make the most sense to me but I'll let the experts figure that one out.

The issue of sound is a hard one for me. Streetcars can be a bit noisey. Especially when they turn. A busy road emits more sound for sure but most of the day, we don't have busy roads in downtown OKC. However, the sound really never bothered me. I lived right on an electric bus line in Seattle. Had about 20' of glass doors facing the road. If the house was quiet, we'd hear the humming of the electric motor of the bus coming up the street but you had to be pretty quiet to hear it. I think what people like Larry need to do is just go stay in a city like Seattle with electric bus lines or a city with a streetcar and just stay for a couple of days right on the route. You hear them at first but then you get used to them really quickly. No different than you get used to normal traffic sounds, fire trucks if you live near a station, trains if you live near tracks, etc. Of course, I don't think the streetcar is nearly as loud as any of those so please forgive the examples.

Lastly, the quick personal attacks are really getting old. Sure, I could just grow thicker skin but that's not a solution because OKCTalk can be much better than that. Sooner, you are a major source of the fighting that goes on here. It's old man, really, really old. You love to tell Steve that he is being passive aggressive and yet you're incredibly passive aggressive at times. You quickly revert to "I was just asking a simple question" responses and almost the same voice attack Steve who is responding with the exact same response. It is possible, on threads not about Steve specifically, for you to keep your opinions of Steve and his integrity out of the threads? They are like gum on a brand new sidewalk in OKC. Ugh. It is one of the reasons I dislike anonymity on forums like this. "Saying someone is ugly doesn’t make you any prettier." as they say. I think Nick is about to amend his initial reaction and that's fine. Even without it, he's entitled to believe that Steve was wrong, as is anyone of course. To me, it crosses the "OKCTalk" line when the attacks just keep on coming, quickly followed by accusations, conspiracy theories, etc. These threads are mostly discussions about specific projects. The majority of people reading don't care what I think or anyone else thinks about Steve's journalistic ethics. They simply aren't a factor in the discussion -- no more than a minor footnote at least. Pete is working really, really hard to make this site an even better resource for anyone wanting to learn more about OKC. Food for thought I'd suggest would be to read the guidelines for Wikipedia's "Talk" pages : Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. I think it is getting time to institute some of these guidelines. And to be frank, I don't think we'd miss out on any good discussions or valuable information if some people chose to just pick up their toys and leave if they were enforced.

I think Larry's opinion is wrong but I've got a whole heap of respect for a guy who has put as much time and mental energy into building the company he has, along with all the rest of the time and money he volunteers for the betterment of this city. His opinion does carry a lot of weight so now's the time for the streetcart/transit community to respond with logical, positive reinforcement for their/our positions. That's all it will take if any influence is to be given from 'outside' LN's own circle(s) of influence.

Yeah, so I may have been a little rash, but I was blind sided. Truly blind sided. To say this isn't new news is deceiving because we all thought LN was just gonna keep his antipathy to himself on this and let us build world class public transit that can be built on for the future. Well that was wrong, and Steve's story turned a slight dust up into a prolonged week-long PR battle in which no strong streetcar advocate was given a voice. It is scary to think we need to rely on Rick Cain to refute LN's future proclamations. LN will destroy us in that case.

I also think that these things aren't as two sided as many think. I believe in Erasmus and Descartes, in that "I think, therefor I am." I have always been fairly absolutist, albeit I've learned to be diplomatic lately. It's a good thing I am this way because growing up I idolized Houston, was extremely conservative, and got excited for suburban sprawl developments. I realized that this was absolutely wrong and discovered that OKC has a proud urban legacy and aspires to return to its former greatness. I also learned absolutes about QoL, comparatively. My fascination then with what I learned is what fueled me to pursue education and a career in city planning, the latter of which has brought me to Ohio until I can earn the credentials to return to OKC. (Shhh don't tell my girlfriend)

Steve has always been a fact-based journalist, and not one that reports conjecture whether it is that of Larry Nichols or Jane Jenkins or who knows. My friend Steve will defend this piece in saying that the fact he's reporting is that LN is mad. I think in order to take this in context and be able to appreciate the article, which was truly ground breaking either way (I would never take that away from Steve), is to ask more questions. I understand that Steve is flabbergasted and annoyed at Soonerguru's unwarranted ad hominems, and the right course may be to just leave the forum as unrelenting as guru has unfortunately been. All that said, I wish Steve could just address a few quick concerns here to help us understand and accept the article better.

1. Did LN make these comments going through the motions of a public mtg, or was this a specific interview or worse, did he go out of his way here to speak specifically to the streetcar?
2. We've known he hates the wires. What is the new news here?
3. I know it takes a while to corroborate so many sources, but did LN make these comments a week before at the same time as the JR quoted him, or is this really a story a week later?
4. Is it possible to use some stronger sources to refute LN next time (like someone that can tell you how many decibels different transit modes operate at, or detailed info on different power sources, etc)
5. As far as AA goes, even though it seems like AA wanted to avoid a negative streetcar story, you still reported that they "almost" opposed it. Does that include Chris Salyer and Meg Salyer? Steve Mason, who is a committee member? Or Coffee Slingers, the owner of which posts a lot on the streetcar FB? Who in AA wants to torpedo the streetcar? (Since you gave us the insinuation)
6. What about reporting developers who WANT the streetcar? Gary Brooks made a corner cut at Dewey and 13th to try and get it to go around The Edge. Richard McKown wanted Walnut Street to be a route. And so on...

If we could get clarification on these points, it would be much appreciated and help us understand the article's context. Keep in mind that the majority of OKC Central/Steve Lackmeyer column readership is OKC Talk people, and people who are in favor of transit and specifically the streetcar. This is not even close to 50/50. We want streetcar and we don't want to feel betrayed after voting and opening our wallets to pay for this, and already being hijacked to cover so much of a convention center in order to get this. MAPS is about trade offs and we're not complaining so long as we get our streetcar, period. This is the biggest issue facing OKC in a long time...bigger than the boulevard (not by much tho), bigger than SR demolitions, bigger than crappy House of Bedlam or Candlewood developments, etc.

Give the people what they want.

[CaptDave]

Give the people what they want.

AND what they have stepped up and voted to pay for - even including a few things they didn't necessarily want to satisfy the desires of other people.

Give and take is inherently part of the MAPS "contract" with the voters. One group's desires does not trump another's. Those who voted "Yes" for MAPS3 understood they were voting for a few things they really wanted and a few they probably didn't care about at all. The convention center advocates are getting their CC in large part because MAPS3 included other things desired by more people. Most of the strong response to Steve's article (specifically the headline to be fair) and Larry Nichols' statements was intitiated by what appeared to be one group's attempt to overtly influence the progress of a very popular MAPS project. I think/hope we have reset the playing field now that some context to Mr Nichols' remarks has come to light.

I am looking ahead and assuming Mr Nichols meant he wants the streetcar to be an modern, quiet, efficient means of getting around downtown. I think just about everyone who reads this thread would agree 100%.

[Spartan]

Steve needs to look at his role for what it is. The power brokers are a tiny slice of his readership, so stop writing articles to appease them. The reality is that Steve's pen wields an incredible amount of influence, and in the past, he has always used that influence to even the playing field for the little guy going up against immense odds for a better OKC. Right now Steve's pen is slapping the people of OKC across the face.

[Rover]

As a journalist, Steve's roll is not to advocate for against the "power brokers" or the "little guy", whoever those are. His job is to report the facts as clearly and unbiased as possible. He isn't a lobbyist or a public relations officer. The truth is what should wield power. What everyone does with the truth is up to them.

[Rover]

If all options are not vetted, then the pubic isn't served well either. All possible technologies need to be considered and then eliminated until we get to the best one. If everything wasn't considered, then proper oversight wasn't accomplished and the voters wishes wouldn't be best served. LN stated his concerns, so let's just consider it and dismiss it if it isn't indeed the best option.

[Spartan]

As a journalist, Steve's roll is not to advocate for against the "power brokers" or the "little guy", whoever those are. His job is to report the facts as clearly and unbiased as possible. He isn't a lobbyist or a public relations officer. The truth is what should wield power. What everyone does with the truth is up to them.

Save it for a Hallmark card lol. I didn't say otherwise. The facts just happen to usually (if not always) refute the power brokers.

Truth speaks. In this case Steve did not mention actual decibel levels. Nor did he go into much detail about power sources. Or AA almost voting against the streetcar in its neighborhood. Of proven, observed TOD benchmarks in other cities (to Steve's credit though, he did mention Arlington VA TOD when he called Istook out). Steve used tidbits that paint an extremely negative picture, very differently from ALL the facts.

In fact I think a typical post from "Just the Facts" aka Kerry contains less bias. The only moral here is I have learned to be wary of people who sermonize about "the facts" rather than just talking about facts without using that word.

[Spartan]

If all options are not vetted, then the pubic isn't served well either. All possible technologies need to be considered and then eliminated until we get to the best one. If everything wasn't considered, then proper oversight wasn't accomplished and the voters wishes wouldn't be best served. LN stated his concerns, so let's just consider it and dismiss it if it isn't indeed the best option.

Okay cool lets do this for the convention center, then we can talk about just vetting each project. Until then bullish/$ walks.

[CaptDave]

Is it time to get back to talk about the streetcar itself? Lost in all the focus on Steve's article and Larry Nichols' comments over the last couple of days is the streetcar subcommittee yesterday voted to have the Jacobs group focus on the Zeta route. A final decision / recommendation from the subcommittee will come in a few weeks, but from my perspective Jacobs received some important marching orders. There will be various options considered for the route such as a Midtown tail track or couplet; Broadway double track or single; 10th St or 11th St couplet; how far east into Bricktown; and eventually stop locations.

[Doug Loudenback]

Steve needs to look at his role for what it is. The power brokers are a tiny slice of his readership, so stop writing articles to appease them. The reality is that Steve's pen wields an incredible amount of influence, and in the past, he has always used that influence to even the playing field for the little guy going up against immense odds for a better OKC. Right now Steve's pen is slapping the people of OKC across the face.

Nick, Nick, Nick ... can you say, "Jane, you ignorant slut?" (and I'm saying that with a smile on my face). I'd hoped that you were willing to recant your earlier remarks about Steve, but I guess that's not so. I just don't know what else to say ... I guess that I must just give up on you and go on about my merry way ... and, on edit, and seeing your further comments, about those comments, I would simply say, as you did,

"Save them for a Hallmark card."

At least that way, I have the choice to pay a couple of bucks, or not, before I'm willing to buy them. When you reach 30 years of age ... and perhaps that's not in the too far distant future ... I look forward to hearing your further observations ... perhaps even sooner. Until then, I eagerly await YOUR next sermon ... well, kinda sorta. Or not.

[Spartan]

Nick, Nick, Nick ... can you say, "Jane, you ignorant slut?" (and I'm saying that with a smile on my face). I'd hoped that you were willing to recant your earlier remarks about Steve, but I guess that's not so. I just don't know what else to say ... I guess that I must just give up on you and go on about my merry way ... and, on edit, and seeing your further comments, about those comments, I would simply say, as you did,


At least that way, I have the choice to pay a couple of bucks, or not, before I'm willing to buy them. When you reach 30 years of age, I look forward to hearing your further observations ... perhaps even sooner. Until then, I eagerly await YOUR next sermon ... well, kinda sorta. Or not.

Based on language I'm assuming you're joking. I dont know how to characterize the intent or purpose of Steve's recent article, so how much more do you want me to take back my remarks? I am asking for more info because I want to get past this and accept the article.

But right now, it's either Larry Nichols or Steve Lackmeyer trying to make this into a big, negative story. I want to get along with everyone but i also want the streetcar. I'm trying to figure out what exactly Nichols did and what exactly Steve did.

[CaptDave]

Based on language I'm assuming you're joking. I dont know how to characterize the intent or purpose of Steve's recent article, so how much more do you want me to take back my remarks? I am asking for more info because I want to get past this and accept the article.

But right now, it's either Larry Nichols or Steve Lackmeyer trying to make this into a big, negative story. I want to get along with everyone but i also want the streetcar. I'm trying to figure out what exactly Nichols did and what exactly Steve did.

Honestly Spartan, I wouldn't spend much time worrying about it. What's done is done and in the bigger scheme of things relatively minor. Larry Nichols has his opinion(s) and Steve's story wasn't up to his usual high quality - but I think most of the issues came from the misleading headline. After hearing some clarification of Mr Nichols' comments I decided most of us probably have more areas of agreement with him than disagreement.

His primary concern seems to be making the streetcar quiet. This is essentially solved already. Electric motors are quieter than any internal combustion engine and will be the obvious choice for the vehicles. Sharp turns and crossing points are the main contributors to streetcar noise. The Zeta route is in a straight path on the west side of the Devon complex and therefore will be unnoticeable from inside the Devon Auditorium or Nebu as far as noise is concerned. The turn from Robinson onto Sheridan is a wide radius and will reduce wheel impingement noise outside the Colcord.

I think it is going to be OK.