Streetcar

[zookeeper]

These last several pages are a testament to what happens when an elite wealthy few have such ridiculous power. I agree with Doug that with LN it's a vanity thing, an entitlement thing, as if to think his personal opinion outweighs everybody else's because of the size of his bank account. Think about how much we're talking here about LN's opinion, one guy. He already has too much influence, sits on too many boards, chairs too many committees, and thinks somebody anointed him King of Downtown. He's a nice enough guy, but he's wrong on this and he thinks what he wants, he gets. Unfortunately, he's probably right.

[dankrutka]

Well put. I'm sure a lot of people, including myself, reacted too strongly to Nichols and the article, but more than anything, people who want the streetcar need to make a case why OKC needs it now.

[Pete]

Yep, and I have to be careful about being too opinionated because obviously I need to set the correct tone for this forum.

I believe there is a way to have rational, intelligent conversation that presents well-reasoned challenges when necessary.

And for that dialog to be productive in the way we all want it to be, we have to keep coming back to a place of mutual respect.


I really, REALLY don't want to censor or restrict conversation and we've tried very hard to be as hands-off as possible. Keeping political posts separated has helped tremendously.

But what I want most of all is for this site to be a force for making OKC a better community -- and increasingly, you can see that happening -- but if we get too extreme we lose all our credibility and leverage.


So, I apologize for coming out a little strong against Mr. Nichols. As I've said all along, I have absolutely no doubt he is acting out of what he believes is the best interest of the community.

For those of us who are advocates of the streetcar, this is merely a call to action in terms of getting people educated and making sure this gets done, and done correctly.

[Just the facts]

Well you guys can all sit around and hold hands if you want but I stand by everything I said. If people don't like the word Plutocrat or Plutocracy associated with LN I don't know what to say - he is the definition of Plutocrat in every conceivable way.

[soonerguru]

Sid,

I expressed my concerns about Steve's article in a calm, direct manner. I'm sorry you took it to be picking a fight. To add, I was not the person here who called it a hit piece.

My concern still stands: I believe Steve could have consulted subcommittee members who are knowledgeable about the technical questions to answer some of Mr. Nichols' concerns.

Similarly, the headline flat-out said that Nichols is Opposed To The Streetcar. The article itself does not seem to say this. After reading the article three times, I'm not sure whether or not Mr. Nichols is actually opposed to it.

I am not going to make personal attacks here. I am going to challenge people here -- as you have challenged me -- from time to time, but I have no interest in personal attacks.

I fully support the project, so I will sometimes react viscerally to things such as Nichols comments.

[Steve]

Edited: communicating privately via dm

[CaptDave]

It is quite baffling unless it really is as simple as a matter of his personal preference against overhead catenary. In that case, his opinion is duly noted and we should move on toward developing an efficient, reliable streetcar circulator for downtown within the MAPS3 budget. That probably means conventional electric powered streetcars supplied by an overhead wire system. To threaten or imply there will be a heavyweight effort to oppose construction of a very popular project the voters approved simply because one or a few people did not get their way just seems beneath Mr Nichols who has done a lot of good for OKC.

After I wrote this earlier I reread the article and thought about the streetcar planning process that has brought us to this point. In all honesty, I think a few people were not well served.

I don't think reporters usually write the headline or subheadings that appear on the page - the headline and subheading of today's source of the controversy and uproar gave what would usually have been considered a relatively routine article a sensational aura. If my hunch is right, I don't Steve was done any favors by whomever wrote the titles that appeared above his article. I think Steve has done better work, it was clear he took several statements and pieced together his article. In this case it was not as effective and did not convey the context of some of the statements very well. But who among us is always at the top of our games? I think Steve took a couple on the chin that probably were not deserved - and maybe a couple that were.

That headline also unfairly caused Mr Nichols comments to be taken more negatively than probably necessary. As I stated, he gave his opinion and it has been noted by the people working on moving this project forward. I doubt he cares much about what people write about him on message boards or social media, but I think he is being unfairly criticized not for his comments, but for his motivation. His preference about overhead wires has been known for quite a while and should not have been a surprise. I was surprised by the way he restated his position and maybe read too much into it. I still think he is wrong on this issue and hope he can be swayed to reconsider.

The project itself was not served well either. While it is good that so many people are engaged and discussing this transformative project, some of the commentary was clearly of an opportunistic nature. No one is well served by attempting to play politically motivated games with the public trust - not even those that might realize some short term gain. I understand there are people who oppose the streetcar and MAPS in general - that is their perogative but more people liked the projects in MAPS 3 enough to overlook the way the ordinance was written and the fact that we really did just vote for a tax. But for anyone to seriously suggest not completing these projects is to break the trust of the public and end one of the most wildly successful civic investment programs in the country.

Words do matter - these words were poorly chosen and hopefully a few lessons were learned.

Devon Energy's Larry Nichols objects to downtown streetcar system - Larry Nichols, one of the most influential voices guiding downtown Oklahoma City development, is preparing to oppose construction of a new streetcar system over concerns about noise and visual blight.

Now, moving forward, I hope people stay informed about the progress of the streetcar. I am convinced it is going to be very successful. I know thousands of hours of effort have be put into it by the subcommittee, advocates (not a dirty word Steve!), consultants, and city leaders. As citizens who are paying the tax, we should expect the absolute best streetcar system our $120 million can buy. Despite the uproar of today, I am still optimistic and excited about seeing the completion of Phase I in 2017.

[soonerguru]

After I wrote this earlier I reread the article and thought about the streetcar planning process that has brought us to this point. In all honesty, I think a few people were not well served.

I don't think reporters usually write the headline or subheadings that appear on the page - the headline and subheading of today's source of the controversy and uproar gave what would usually have been considered a relatively routine article a sensational aura. If my hunch is right, I don't Steve was done any favors by whomever wrote the titles that appeared above his article. I think Steve has done better work, it was clear he took several statements and pieced together his article. In this case it was not as effective and did not convey the context of some of the statements very well. But who among us is always at the top of our games? I think Steve took a couple on the chin that probably were not deserved - and maybe a couple that were.

That headline also unfairly caused Mr Nichols comments to be taken more negatively than probably necessary. As I stated, he gave his opinion and it has been noted by the people working on moving this project forward. I doubt he cares much about what people write about him on message boards or social media, but I think he is being unfairly criticized not for his comments, but for his motivation. His preference about overhead wires has been known for quite a while and should not have been a surprise. I was surprised by the way he restated his position and maybe read too much into it. I still think he is wrong on this issue and hope he can be swayed to reconsider.

The project itself was not served well either. While it is good that so many people are engaged and discussing this transformative project, some of the commentary was clearly of an opportunistic nature. No one is well served by attempting to play politically motivated games with the public trust - not even those that might realize some short term gain. I understand there are people who oppose the streetcar and MAPS in general - that is their perogative but more people liked the projects in MAPS 3 enough to overlook the way the ordinance was written and the fact that we really did just vote for a tax. But for anyone to seriously suggest not completing these projects is to break the trust of the public and end one of the most wildly successful civic investment programs in the country.

Words do matter - these words were poorly chosen and hopefully a few lessons were learned.

Devon Energy's Larry Nichols objects to downtown streetcar system - Larry Nichols, one of the most influential voices guiding downtown Oklahoma City development, is preparing to oppose construction of a new streetcar system over concerns about noise and visual blight.

Now, moving forward, I hope people stay informed about the progress of the streetcar. I am convinced it is going to be very successful. I know thousands of hours of effort have be put into it by the subcommittee, advocates (not a dirty word Steve!), consultants, and city leaders. As citizens who are paying the tax, we should expect the absolute best streetcar system our $120 million can buy. Despite the uproar of today, I am still optimistic and excited about seeing the completion of Phase I in 2017.

This is a great post, but Nichols did say these things in a very public forum. The language he chose to use was incendiary (made worse by the headline). It is perfectly predictable that people would / do have a problem with it, or are concerned by it. And while I absolutely LOVE the fact his company is here and he has built the most awesome tower ever, I don't think people should have to bend over backwards apologizing for expressing their discontent with his comments.

[Doug Loudenback]

Well put. I'm sure a lot of people, including myself, reacted too strongly to Nichols and the article, but more than anything, people who want the streetcar need to make a case why OKC needs it now.

I kinda disagree, dankrutka ... cool name, by the way.

My view is that the people who want the streetcar already expressed their opinion, and the only one that really counts, on December 8, 2009. I don't think that they are obligated to reinvent the wheel. If they want to do that, that's fine, but they have no burden to make their case. In principle, at least, the thing has been decided.

[CaptDave]

No doubt about that guru. That is why I was taken aback - I don't know Mr Nichols at all, but his statements seemed out of the norm for him by the overall negativity. It still doesn't make sense to me on some levels, but I have decided not to worry about it too much. We are actually building a streetcar in Oklahoma City. This would have been improbable or impossible not so long ago. I will keep supporting those working on getting it built and continue to be an advocate for improving transit in central OK.

[CaptDave]

My view is that the people who want the streetcar already expressed their opinion, and the only one that really counts, on December 8, 2009. I don't think that they are obligated to reinvent the wheel. If they want to do that, that's fine, but they have no burden to make their case. In principle, at least, the thing has been decided.

Absolutely agree Doug. The focus now should be on building the absolute best downtown circulator streetcar system our $120 million can. The question is not IF a streetcar system should be built, only the final form is yet to be determined.

[soonerguru]

I kinda disagree, dankrutka ... cool name, by the way.

My view is that the people who want the streetcar already expressed their opinion, and the only one that really counts, on December 8, 2009. I don't think that they are obligated to reinvent the wheel. If they want to do that, that's fine, but they have no burden to make their case. In principle, at least, the thing has been decided.

I agree with this 100%, but powerful forces seem determined to constantly shake this project up. It's unreal. I'm thinking back to the first MAPS and I remember some minor controversies about schedules, the library panel dispute, etc., but I do not remember any of the first MAPS projects being put through so much outward and behind-the-scenes scrutiny as the streetcar. It's quite bizarre, and even more so when you consider it was one of MAPS III's only positively supported projects by the voters. This is hard to understand.

[catch22]

I think it has to do with just a couple factors. 1) Modern Streetcars are a fairly new phenomenon in America. So in some ways, it's an outlier project that is going to get extra attention and therefore extra scrutiny. Plus, this is the middle of the country. So tranist isn't exactly a popular topic to begin with. 2) The fact that it is a long, linear project, touching dozens and dozens of property owners makes it a prime target for discussion at the coffee shop.

So far, I think the scrutiny hasn't been too corrosive to the project. In fact, I feel it has sharpened advocates and made the transit community more effective and consistant when it comes to educating the public. As they say, there is no such thing as bad publicity...the more people talking about it now, perhaps the more riders we'll have. Until it is built, we're just going to have to stay vigilent at putting out spot fires as they start and recruiting more people to the movement.

One thing I can say is I am excited and cannot wait to begin using the Oklahoma City Streetcar. It will revolutionize the way transit is perceived in this city.

[Just the facts]

Then just use it as a description, not an accusation or indictment. You made the correlation. That correlation is what I'm disputing.

I did use it as a description. In fact, I didn't even use LN's name in my comment. That was Shadid (where the term originated) and Pete (who reposted the comment here).

This is what happens when the benevolent plutocrat stops being benevolent.

But let's not kid ourselves, LN holds a position of political power in OKC because of his wealth and standing in the business community. If he was working as a clerk at The Gap do you think there is any way he would be on a single government appointed body? The shoe fits.

[Just the facts]

Maybe this route will solve everyones issues.

It connects the tranist center, Bricktown, Deep Deuce, the east side of AA, OU Medical, and the Captiol Complex. Total track is about 4.5 miles.

[CaptDave]

Not bad at all. I would extend it to entirely circle the Capitol and make it and something similar to Sid's proposal to get to 23rd Street farther west OKC Streetcar Phase III (first post MAPS3 extensions). Phase IV should connect those two lines with a 23rd Street line and hopefully cross the river to Capitol Hill and reach Farmer's Market and Stockyards. I think we may have that kind of momentum by then.

Need to establish the foundational circulator first for the "last mile" to and within Midtown, Bricktown, and CBD first in my opinion though.

[CaptDave]

Capt Dave's ideal OKC streetcar phases - one man's idea and a hopeful vision for OKC:

Phase I - Zeta (MAPS3)
Phase II - Central Park / Core to Shore extension (MAPS3)
Phase III - HSC/Capitol complex and Midtown to Uptown extension to 23rd Street (Maybe cross river to Capitol Hill)
Phase IV - 23rd Street line from Adventure Line connection station (in vicinity of 23rd St overpass of rail line) westward to OKC University at least; Capitol Hill if not in Ph III; Farmer's Market
Phase V - Farmer's Market if not Ph IV; Stockyard City; Boathouse District

That's just a few streetcar lines that make sense to me. Just about every extension would be double track corridors unless compelling reasons for couplets exist that I haven't thought of. Of course these extensions MUST be part of an overall transit improvement plan for the bus system and hopefully commuter rail. Sounds like that RTA should be a priority.....

[Just the facts]

Not bad at all. I would extend it to entirely circle the Capitol and make it and something similar to Sid's proposal to get to 23rd Street farther west OKC Streetcar Phase III (first post MAPS3 extensions). Phase IV should connect those two lines with a 23rd Street line and hopefully cross the river to Capitol Hill and reach Farmer's Market and Stockyards. I think we may have that kind of momentum by then.

Need to establish the foundational circulator first for the "last mile" to and within Midtown, Bricktown, and CBD first in my opinion though.

I just made it avoid any area where there is resistance to a streetcar. If downtown business owners, AA, Midtown, and HH people don't want a streetcar then we just don't serve those areas with it. Problem solved. If the Capitol station needs to be modified to connect to a line along 23rd then that is fine.

i just had it connect to the transit hub, the highest density core housing, the state's largest entertainment district, and the 2 largest employment areas in OKC.

[CaptDave]

Ok - that makes sense. I guess there will always be naysayers and NIMBY's on anything. I think those people need to be reminded that having a building or residence along the street does not deed ownership of that street to them. That basic concept applies regardless of the size of the building or property.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Let me make that a bit more self-serving =)

[CaptDave]

That's funny! Does it terminate in your driveway perchance? Nice to get a laugh after the last couple day's events.

[Tier2City]

Seriously, which neighborhoods have less car-ownership and would be much more transit dependent? If we are to get to 23rd going through or past Classen 10-Penn, Gatewood and the Plaza District makes much more sense then going through Heritage Hills.

[CaptDave]

The the announcement of the Metropolitan, the concept of going east for a part of the N/S spine certainly has more merit. I'm not sure that AA will outpace Midtown (mostly west Midtown + Sosa) in residential development though. Such an exciting time and struggling to serve all of these areas with great transit is a good problem to have in a way.

A quick conceptual of one way to serve the AA corridor. It's very similar to original Subcommittee options looked at.

Attachment 4181

I think you just want to get to Big Truck Tacos as fast as possible. Don't blame you because I love BTT. And then there is Grandad's, Tucker's, and Backdoor BBQ (soon) - is it possible your stomach is guiding your route? We could call it "A Streetcar Named Hunger"

[Rover]

I did use it as a description. In fact, I didn't even use LN's name in my comment. That was Shadid (where the term originated) and Pete (who reposted the comment here).



But let's not kid ourselves, LN holds a position of political power in OKC because of his wealth and standing in the business community. If he was working as a clerk at The Gap do you think there is any way he would be on a single government appointed body? The shoe fits.

If LN only had the skills to be a clerk in a shoe store and not chairman of a company he built into an industry leader doing billions of $ a year in business and employing thousands, then yes, he would have less clout. DUH. Give up this vendetta and talk real issues please. Instead of using fallacy ad hominem, attack with facts the premise that he has proposed. We need good reasonable dialogue on the subject to arm all supporters with info to share with their neighbors, business associates, etc. Only the bitter and petty sounding will use LN's wealth as a basis for crusading for for the streetcar system. This isn't an anti wealth and LN issue, it is a pro streetcar issue. Get over it.

[Just the facts]

Umm. That is what I said Rover. I get that reading comprehension has never been your strong suit but come on. Also, LNs opinion of the streetcar is a real issue.

BTW - what do you think of my new route proposal? I think it solves all the issues.