Streetcar

[Just the facts]

They are about 10 dBa quieter than a diesel engine powered bus Pete. That is actually a bigger difference than many people may think because the decibel scale is exponential.

There is a pretty clear comparison of noise levels of automobile and streetcar at the 2:00 mark. Much of Paris' tram system operates on transit malls or green medians. I think a green median along Broadway with platforms on both sides of the rails is an idea worth exploring. But that is probably heresy to traffic engineers.

Look how ugly that is. It is killing economic development along the route. [/sarc]

[Hutch]

Noisy? Ugly? I don't think so.

It needs to be pointed out that the clips of the streetcars coming around the corner is probably the loudest they will ever be. The sharp turn causes maximum wheel impingement and thus the increased squeaking. The line also includes a handful of points - or locations where two rails cross - that have gaps that result in the highest noise levels. Yet the cars going by were as loud or louder.

Great video showing the reality of modern streetcars. Thanks for posting.

[Pete]

Does Larry Nichols (or anyone else) really believe there is something unique to OKC where a streetcar would be a detriment rather than an asset as it has been for the hundreds of other cities that already have them? That WE will be the exception to a rule already tested over and over again?

Can anyone cite an example where it has detracted from the community, or point to businesses and residents along a current route that wish it wasn't there?


This is simply fear of the unknown... But it's only an unknown to those that have never traveled much or made the slightest effort to learn about the countless other systems that have been operating for decades.

And while, yes, the streetcar committee should make it a point to educate and dispel misconceptions, how hard is it for a civic leader like Nichols to pull up a flipping Youtube video and learn something before making claims (like noisy and ugly) that simply aren't true?


This all strikes me as very irresponsible, especially from downtown's supposed biggest advocate and the chair of the Urban Renewal Authority.

[CaptDave]

One more for good measure today and I will save others for another day. Rome Italy - yeah, that's an ugly city.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Does Larry Nichols (or anyone else) really believe there is something unique to OKC where a streetcar would be a detriment rather than an asset as it has been for the hundreds of other cities that already have them? That WE will be the exception to a rule already tested over and over again?

Can anyone cite an example where it has detracted from the community, or point to businesses and residents along a current route that wish it wasn't there?


This is simply fear of the unknown... But it's only an unknown to those that have never traveled much or made the slightest effort to learn about the countless other systems that have been operating for decades.

And while, yes, the streetcar committee should make it a point to educate and dispel misconceptions, how hard is it for a civic leader like Nichols to pull up a flipping Youtube video and learn something before making claims (like noisy and ugly) that simply aren't true?


This all strikes me as very irresponsible, especially from downtown's supposed biggest advocate and the chair of the Urban Renewal Authority.

I just don't get it. You don't build a multi-billion dollar company by being an ignorant nimrod. These are such superficial objections. There has to be something else we are not seeing here.

[jedicurt]

Rome Italy - yeah, that's an ugly city.

All a matter of opinion. Parts of it are ugly. but probably parts of every city are ugly

[Just the facts]

I just don't get it. You don't build a multi-billion dollar company by being an ignorant nimrod. These are such superficial objections. There has to be something else we are not seeing here.

He sells natural gas and oil. It isn't hard to figue out. He wants the taxpayers of OKC to fund his R&D and proof of concept for a CNG streetcar. Convert this to CNG and you would see all these concerns vaporize and float away (which ironically CNG would produce many of the issues he is concerned about - and raise a few more).

[CaptDave]

All a matter of opinion. Parts of it are ugly. but probably parts of every city are ugly

True enough, but on balance Rome is considered quite nice with a character you only get after being around a couple thousand years. And streetcars with overhead wires don't seem to detract from that at all.

[BoulderSooner]

He sells natural gas and oil. It isn't hard to figue out. He wants the taxpayers of OKC to fund his R&D and proof of concept for a CNG streetcar. Convert this to CNG and you would see all these concerns vaporize and float away (which ironically CNG would produce many of the issues he is concerned about - and raise a few more).

please show me a link to anything that supports this

[Dubya61]

True enough, but on balance Rome is considered quite nice with a character you only get after being around a couple thousand years.

Rome is probably my second favorite city, behind Prague and ahead of Paris.

[Doug Loudenback]

Wow. I continue to be amazed by those OkcTalk posters who form and express opinions without any basis in fact, most especially by those who formed decided opinions about a Lackmeyer story before even having read the article that he wrote. I'm flabbergasted.

Soonerguru, I see you as the most culpable (i.e., guilty) of fitting that mold. If you've still not read the article, use this link. I won't further observe about your previous remarks.

Nick/Spartan, I don't know how you formed your opinion that Lackmeyer's article, which you'd read, was an example of crummy journalism (my choice of words, not yours, but that's the essence of what you said), but, my friend, you are badly mistaken, in my opinion.

Anytime a prominent public figure, i.e., Larry Nichols, publicly states a controversial opinion at an Urban Renewal Authority meeting (or any other public forum), as Nichols did in this instance, it is news in and of itself. That's what Steve's article was focused upon -- the story itself (Nichols' remarks). Would you have preferred that he stifle himself and not report on what Nichols had to say and render Nichols' remarks a non-story and lost in la-la land? Nick, was it to Lackmeyer's credit, or his discredit, that he wrote the story? By writing that story, did he likely endear himself to Larry Nichols? Hardly ... most certainly, Nichols did not like the attention OR the story, in my opinion.

As far the article being balanced is concerned, he noted that Jim Tolbert and Leslie Batchelor, also involved with the Urban Renewal Authority, hold contrary views. As to Automobile Alley, the article notes, "Nichols responded that some property owners along the eventual streetcar route may not want the tracks opposite their developments." The article also notes Jane Jenkins, president of Downtown Oklahoma City Inc., "disclosed that Nichols is not the only one with concerns, and that the Automobile Alley Association came close to voting for a resolution to oppose a streetcar route along Broadway if it included the overhead wiring system." "Coming close" is not the point. In fact, the Automobile Alley Assn. did NOT so vote or take such a position and, in fact, declined to do so.

As to Mayor Cornett's views, the article seems to say that he left himself some wiggle room. On one hand, the article says, "Mayor Mick Cornett responded that he believes some education is needed about 'modern' streetcars, which are different from those built over the last couple decades and vintage-style systems like the one built in Little Rock, Ark." But, on the other hand, the article also said, "Cornett said he understands Nichols' concerns. Nichols was a leader in setting up Project 180, and some of the streets rebuilt as part of the downtown beautification effort could be torn up again to make way for the tracks. ¶ 'We've come a long way on beautification,' Cornett said. 'We don't want to backtrack.' "

Fine, Mayor Cornett ... but what are you suggesting with that "backtrack" remark? "Backtrack" from the streetcar element of MAPS 3? Did you not champion the streetcar project during the MAPS 3 campaign? That's a rhetorical question ... of course he did. Is he trying to wiggle out of that support to quasi-support Nichols' recently stated opinion with his comment?

Nichols' comments have opened a whole can of worms, discussion/debate about whether the streetcar element of MAPS 3 should be scrapped. If Nichols' position gains traction, one can surely expect that gobs of articles will focus on that larger question, not just the "Nichols news story."

As to Nichols' views on this topic, it is news ... I'm not aware that he'd made similar public statements the streetcar on any prior occasion. By him doing so at this time, he appears to be staking out very dangerous turf.

One of his favorite projects, both before, during, and since the MAPS 3 campaign, has been the convention center project. See this still unfinished blog post of mine, "We CAN Have A Convention Hotel ...For a Few Dollars More" ... for additional information. The convention center project was the least favored MAPS 3 project, according to polls.

If his streetcar views would be carried to their logical extension, that would mean elimination of the streetcar element of MAPS 3 even though it was one of the highest favored project in the polls.

If elimination of an element of MAPS 3 be "doable," as a practical matter, which I doubt that it is, that would also mean that his favorite project, the convention center (as well as the side-issue of a convention hotel), could likewise and more easily be put onto the MAPS 3 chopping block.

Before one wishes for something, one should certainly consider what might happen if that wish be granted.

More likely than the streetcar project getting its neck cut off is the prospect if not likelihood, is that Nichols' public stock will take a serious hit if that has not happened already.

[Larry OKC]

While one can often "follow the money", I just don't see it in this particular case. Now if Devon had the exclusive contract for supplying the City with the fuel for the Streetcars....

Doug: Mr. Nichols has stated at some point in the past that he was against overhead wires for the Streetcars. Can't recall exactly when but seems like it was at least a couple of years ago???

[Pete]

Devon and Nichols would not profit from a convention center but I do know that project is a borderline obsession with him. I believe he sees it as a very important part of his legacy.

Not everything can be bought with money; at least not directly. Often, power and influence are much more important in getting what you want.

[Just the facts]

He sells natural gas and oil. It isn't hard to figue out. He wants the taxpayers of OKC to fund his R&D and proof of concept for a CNG streetcar. Convert this to CNG and you would see all these concerns vaporize and float away (which ironically CNG would produce many of the issues he is concerned about - and raise a few more).

please show me a link to anything that supports this

Do you have a more reasonable explination?

[Just the facts]

While one can often "follow the money", I just don't see it in this particular case. Now if Devon had the exclusive contract for supplying the City with the fuel for the Streetcars....

Doug: Mr. Nichols has stated at some point in the past that he was against overhead wires for the Streetcars. Can't recall exactly when but seems like it was at least a couple of years ago???

Larry - the streetcar industry is on the verge of exploding both here in the US and around the world. It isn't just here in OKC. You start running CNG streetcars with their little CNG logo around cities and you gain a huge marketing foothold for other CNG applications.

[MikeLucky]

I can't help but agree with JTF on this one... Personally I think the opposition to the streetcar lies in the propulsion proposed. And, honestly, for a city that is building a renaissance of sorts with natural gas energy as one of the cornerstones... We probably SHOULD be running CNG streetcars, right?

[CaptDave]

And, honestly, for a city that is building a renaissance of sorts with natural gas energy as one of the cornerstones... We probably SHOULD be running CNG streetcars, right?

I disagree. Any internal combustion engine is going to be louder than electric motors and exhaust gasses are still being emitted in the streets; these are two attributes that make electric streetcars preferable to motor vehicles in many urban settings. Also, the vehicle complexity will be higher thus leading to higher maintenance costs. Additionally, electric vehicles generally accelerate smoothly and faster than those powered by ICE's, generators, and traction motors. This is a primary operational factor that must be considered.

However - I strongly support using electrical power generated by a gas turbine power plant for mass transit in OKC and just about anywhere else.

[Rover]

1+1=12

Linking and extrapolation is dangerous logic.

LN is opinionated. LN is used to winning. LN is powerful. LN may be irresponsible on this issue. I understand all these viewpoints. But to say he is doing this to boost Devon's stock by selling more natural gas is a pretty amusing conclusion. Wow. That would be like saying JTF intends to invest in copper wire futures and pushes modern streetcars to run up the demand for copper wire and make him rich. LOL

[PWitty]

I'll admit that I don't know a lot about the technology behind modern streetcars and how they operate, but I doubt that all the people who gush over the Pacific NW for it's beauty and public transportation are doing so because they love how ugly and noisy the streetcars are.

[Just the facts]

Like I said, if Rover/BoulderSooner can think of a more logical reason for the opposition I would be willing to hear it. Remember, he said he wasn't opposed to streetcars, he said he was opposed to the propulsion system of this streetcar. What other technology would he be in favor of? Is it unreasonable to think that he mght be in favor a streetcar powered by a fuel system he produces? Why is it that making that connection is a crazy idea? Crazy would be NOT making that connection.

[BoulderSooner]

Like I said, if Rover/BoulderSooner can think of a more logical reason for the opposition I would be willing to hear it. Remember, he said he wasn't opposed to streetcars, he said he was opposed to the propulsion system of this streetcar. What other technology would he be in favor of? Is it unreasonable to think that he mght be in favor a streetcar powered by a fuel system he produces? Why is it that making that connection is a crazy idea? Crazy would be NOT making that connection.

where did he say that??

noise and eyesore .. is what he said right?

[MikeLucky]

where did he say that??

noise and eyesore .. is what he said right?

And, the main argument here is that if this was a proposed CNG streetcar, would LN still be using noise and eyesore as an excuse at all? I would bet no.

[CaptDave]

This is the subheading from the DOK article: "Larry Nichols, one of the most influential voices guiding downtown Oklahoma City development, is preparing to oppose construction of a new streetcar system over concerns about noise and visual blight."

"Preparing to oppose construction" is the most concerning aspect to me. The basis for his opposition is irrelevant, but still worth investigating. The two stated reasons are easily rebutted with some very quick research. It doesn't make sense.

[MikeLucky]

This is the subheading from the DOK article: "Larry Nichols, one of the most influential voices guiding downtown Oklahoma City development, is preparing to oppose construction of a new streetcar system over concerns about noise and visual blight."

"Preparing to oppose construction" is the most concerning aspect to me. The basis for his opposition is irrelevant, but still worth investigating. The two stated reasons are easily rebutted with some very quick research. It doesn't make sense.

Exactly... so if they don't make sense then what does? Oh, I don't know? Maybe it could have something to do with his actual business? Maybe?

Now, it could be possible that he thinks having a streetcar will impact his business in some other way. Possibly it could reduce the amount of CNG vehicles... maybe there is something else completely different going on here that none of us really know about... but this, like any other human endeavor, can most assuredly trace back to the MONEY. If I were a betting man I would lay even odds that this has something to do with CNG in one way or another. To think otherwise is pretty silly, honestly.

[Pete]

It's very simple: He doesn't think the streetcar will bring much to downtown and believes very strongly in the convention center.

He's probably always felt this way, which is one of the reasons he lobbied to move up the cc and move back the streetcar.

Now that real money is getting ready to be spent on both these projects, he just speaking out more strongly.


I don't think any of this is a great mystery. And I also believe Mr. Nichols believes this perspective is what is right for OKC.


You have to understand that Larry Nichols looks at everything as a businessman. Even with the P180 project, this was all framed in the context of luring other companies downtown, not residents. He said this many times. In fact, most people don't realize that some of the Devon TIF money goes towards incentive programs to bring companies downtown.

Similarly, he believes the convention center represents a great business investment: Spend a couple hundred of million and you can find studies that will show a great return. Where is the measurable return on the streetcar investment? If anything, he believes it will hurt existing businesses and certainly won't do much to help.