Streetcar

[OKCTalker]

I am amazed that Steve is being attacked in this forum.
It is my hope that Steve has learned a lesson here and he will drift back to the center and cover both sides of issues like a real reporter should and leave his bias out of his articles regardless of which side his bias falls on.

Please reconcile those two statements in the same post, the first expressing amazement that Steve is being attacked, and the last saying that you hope he learned his lesson.

[soonerguru]

Comments ARE allowed. One was left nine hours ago by a John Murray, the other 28 minutes ago by a Ben Felder.

They ARE allowed for subscribers only, as has been pointed out in this thread. For anyone who isn't, the "Comments have been disabled for this article" message appears. Hence the reason for the confusion.

[kevinpate]

killing any of the maps 3 projects kills the maps brand

What if they were to merely wound one or more MAPs3 projects? Suppose someone miscalculated the amount of trails to be provided, the level of programming appropriate for a park compared to the sales pitch, the number and scope of aquatic centers, etc. Oh, wait.

[adaniel]

I just read the article. It is not a hit piece at all. The fact that a major voice in the community opposes this (for complete BS reasons) needs to be published.

[soonerguru]

What if they were to merely wound one or more MAPs3 projects? Suppose someone miscalculated the amount of trails to be provided, the level of programming appropriate for a park compared to the sales pitch, the number and scope of aquatic centers, etc. Oh, wait.

Excellent point. So why pick on the only project that appears to have not wildly miscalculated its budgetary needs?

[soonerguru]

I just read the article. It is not a hit piece at all. The fact that a major voice in the community opposes this (for complete BS reasons) needs to be published.

Spartan referred to it as a "hit piece." No one else has. The question is why more knowledgeable members of the streetcar subcommittee -- who could have addressed Nichols' concerns -- were not interviewed or quoted.

[Pete]

Remember that Larry Nichols is now chairman of the OKC Ubran Renewal Authority (OCURA).

So, not only is he speaking as a private citizen and Devon Chairman, he's attached in an official capacity to some powerful decision-making bodies (he also sits on the Devon TIF committee, the convention center committee and several others).

He holds a LOT of power -- both officially and informally -- over what happens in our central core.

Thus, the position he seems to be taking regarding the streetcar and his corresponding statements are concerning not just due to this project and the future of MAPS, but also how he views urban development in general.

[kevinpate]

Excellent point. So why pick on the only project that appears to have not wildly miscalculated its budgetary needs?

Pure speculation on my part, but let's say there is, oh, I dunno, perhaps a monetary issue with another desired project out there, and perhaps it's not an insignificant issue. Were that to be an issue, where else on the Isle of MAPs3 would one decide to dig for a decent size chest of treasure?

[Anonymous.]

The comments on the article are extremely face-palm worthy.

[Just the facts]

The comments on the article are extremely face-palm worthy.

That is what happens when they limit it to people with facebook.

If one more person cites the monorail at Disney as a good example of mass transit I am going the scream.

[BDP]

There is always some level of noise downtown, I doubt the streetcar will rise above the level of normal daily and nightly downtown white noise. It's not like a the noise of a freight train (which passes by Midtown, the CBD, and Bricktown. It will still make a ton of noise when It no longer sounds its horns). As for the issue of the wire, It seems rather a petty complaint.

Yes. A modern streetcar should not raise the noise level more so than any vehicle with a combustion engine and it will be quieter than most commercial vehicles.

It's funny, because the most consistent contributors to noise pollution in the downtown vicinity are the freeways that border it.

[OKCisOK4me]

Maybe they think they could just rebrand it. Simple anagram: SPAM. It could stand for Special Projects Announced by Manipulation.

This is probably the most well thought of anagram I have ever seen. Bravo!

With regard to LN wanting a city like Houston, you must remember that Houston has streetcars too.

[Popsy]

Please reconcile those two statements in the same post, the first expressing amazement that Steve is being attacked, and the last saying that you hope he learned his lesson.

OK. How simple does this need to be? I am amazed because in my opinion Steve has always been a champion of this forum by including his bias of urbanism in news articles he writes, so to see a member or members of the forum attacking him about an article he wrote with no bias towards either side of the story amazes me. The lesson I hope he learned is that if you don't stay in the center, or bias free to put it another way, will cause the people you have been supporting to turn on you when the usual bias does not show up. Were you looking for a different type of reconciliation?

[BoulderSooner]

Unlike Spartan, I don't always defend Steve but I didn't see anything wrong with the article either nor did I see anything that was even new. I have known for 2 years now that LN didn't want the streetcar. If I can figure it out everyone should have been able to figure it out.



I am pretty sure it is already dead, and maybe it should be. I won't support another one.

On edit, in fact, I am quickly approaching the point of supporting a MAPS III nullification vote and then revoting on the projects one by one in the same election.

Item 1: Shall MAPS III be nullified?
Item 2: Shall the convention center be built funded by a temporary 1 cent sales
Item 3: Shall the streetcar be built funded by a temporary 1 cent sales
Item 4: Shall the central park be built funded by a temporary 1 cent sales
Item 5: ....

I'll take my chance with that vote.

you don't live here ... i don't really care if you support it or not ...

[CaptDave]

Noisy? Ugly? I don't think so.

It needs to be pointed out that the clips of the streetcars coming around the corner is probably the loudest they will ever be. The sharp turn causes maximum wheel impingement and thus the increased squeaking. The line also includes a handful of points - or locations where two rails cross - that have gaps that result in the highest noise levels. Yet the cars going by were as loud or louder.

[kevinpate]

The comments on the article are extremely face-palm worthy.

Perhaps they were just trying to match the quality of some of the quotes in the article.

[Pete]

Couldn't it be argued that streetcars -- at least the electric variety that Nichols is so concerned about -- are quieter than buses which use combustion engines?

And it certainly results in reduced emissions.

[soonerguru]

Couldn't it be argued that streetcars -- at least the electric variety that Nichols is so concerned about -- are quieter than buses which use combustion engines?

And it certainly results in reduced emissions.

It would seem his bigger issue is the overhead wires. And perhaps he has a view of streetcars that is based on older technology. Again, this is where education is key.

The quotes I've seen attributed to Larry don't actually say he's against the project. He's saying he would be against it "if" it were ugly and noisy and detract from downtown's improvements.

Am I wrong? Is there actually a quote from him that he's against it, or trying to kill it?

[CaptDave]

They are about 10 dBa quieter than a diesel engine powered bus Pete. That is actually a bigger difference than many people may think because the decibel scale is exponential.

There is a pretty clear comparison of noise levels of automobile and streetcar at the 2:00 mark. Much of Paris' tram system operates on transit malls or green medians. I think a green median along Broadway with platforms on both sides of the rails is an idea worth exploring. But that is probably heresy to traffic engineers.

[Spartan]

you don't live here ... i don't really care if you support it or not ...

Boulder, I hope you don't live in Edmond or any other burb with all of these accusations. The reality is that a lot of the Chamber board and top staff live outside of OKC proper and have never felt the necessity to move into the city limits in order to have due influence on city affairs.

I'll address the article fallout again here soon.. I've had some evolving thoughts.

[Pete]

I actually think the sight of overhead wires along Automobile Alley and other downtown corridors will make them look much cooler, urban and historical.

And has been previously mentioned, they also clearly mark the route.

[BoulderSooner]

Boulder, I hope you don't live in Edmond or any other burb with all of these accusations. The reality is that a lot of the Chamber board and top staff live outside of OKC proper and have never felt the necessity to move into the city limits in order to have due influence on city affairs.

I'll address the article fallout again here soon.. I've had some evolving thoughts.

that wasn't to any one but just the facts ..

[warreng88]

The article is now open for the viewing public.

[soonerguru]

One thing is clear: it's going to be darned near impossible to implement transit improvements in this city, streetcar or no. There is a ton of entrenched opposition to moving forward on anything. Transit supporters need to work to stay together as much as possible going forward. Streetcars, buses, bicycles, regional transit, etc. Any healing we can do to bridge gaps between groups would be helpful.

[Just the facts]

you don't live here ... i don't really care if you support it or not ...

Just because someone can't vote doesn't mean they can't have an influence. I wonder if LN voted for MAPS III.