Streetcar

[Pete]

None of this overhead wire or noise stuff is new... Why is Nichols raising these issues now?

If I was a conspiracy theorist I'd point out that the convention center is nearing a critical point, especially in terms of land acquisition. We all know that project is not going to happen on that site for what has been budgeted; and that's not even including the huge un-budgeted chunk for the cc hotel. We also know that Nichols used his influence to move the cc up in the MAPS schedule and absolutely wants it done and wants it done on that specific site and ASAP.

So, where is all this extra money going to come from? How about a noisy, unsightly streetcar that will do nothing to spur economic development? And how about rallying businesses along the proposed route to say they don't want it either?

[soonerguru]

My radar is going off. What is it that we don't know? Could the convention center project be hitting an iceberg? This seems like an overt sideshow to a bigger story. Instead of freelancing opinions about another MAPS project, a project for which he doesn't serve on the subcommittee, shouldn't Nichols be focusing on the project for which he shares a stake as subcommittee member?

Anything new on the convention center?

[soonerguru]

None of this overhead wire or noise stuff is new... Why is Nichols raising these issues now?

If I was a conspiracy theorist I'd point out that the convention center is nearing a critical point, especially in terms of land acquisition. We all know that project is not going to happen on that site for what has been budgeted; and that's not even including the huge un-budgeted chunk for the cc hotel. We also know that Nichols used his influence to move the cc up in the MAPS schedule and absolutely wants it done and wants it done on that specific site and ASAP.

So, where is all this extra money going to come from? How about a noisy, unsightly streetcar that will do nothing to spur economic development? And how about rallying businesses along the proposed route to say they don't want it either?

You and I think alike!!! You beat me by a minute!

[Pete]

They are deep into negotiations for acquiring the property for the convention center and thus have a good idea of what they will have to pay; at least a range.

They have also just now seemed to settle on a layout which required a big chunk to be built underground.

No way can that project happen on that site in the manner they want to build it for anywhere near the budgeted amount.

[UnFrSaKn]

Public questions about Oklahoma City streetcar system can be viewed online | News OK

[soonerguru]

They are deep into negotiations for acquiring the property for the convention center and thus have a good idea of what they will have to pay; at least a range.

They have also just now seemed to settle on a layout which required a big chunk to be built underground.

No way can that project happen on that site in the manner they want to build it for anywhere near the budgeted amount.

We've all assumed this from day one. I know you have an extensive background in major real estate / development. Have we heard from authoritative insiders that things are going wacky over budget, or are we just assuming that is the case at this point?

[Spartan]

None of this overhead wire or noise stuff is new... Why is Nichols raising these issues now?

If I was a conspiracy theorist I'd point out that the convention center is nearing a critical point, especially in terms of land acquisition. We all know that project is not going to happen on that site for what has been budgeted; and that's not even including the huge un-budgeted chunk for the cc hotel. We also know that Nichols used his influence to move the cc up in the MAPS schedule and absolutely wants it done and wants it done on that specific site and ASAP.

So, where is all this extra money going to come from? How about a noisy, unsightly streetcar that will do nothing to spur economic development? And how about rallying businesses along the proposed route to say they don't want it either?

Wow. This is my suspicion too, but I didn't want to admit it publicly. That Pete is expressing this really lends credibility...

[Pete]

I'm not saying this is what Nichols is doing but we know he really, really wants the convention center and we also know that project is going to need extra funding; maybe a lot more.

So, it's just a coincidence as they are deep into negotiations to acquire the very expensive, preferred property for this project that he suddenly comes out in the press TWICE in just a few days against one of the biggest ticket items in MAPS? And does it although the plan of action has been pretty public for quite some time??

We know he has already used his ample influence to move the cc up in the schedule.

[soonerguru]

I'm not saying this is what Nichols is doing but we know he really, really wants the convention center and we also know that project is going to need extra funding; maybe a lot more.

So, it's just a coincidence as they are deep into negotiations to acquire the very expensive, preferred property for this project that he suddenly comes out in the press TWICE in just a few days against one of the biggest ticket items in MAPS? And does it although the plan of action has been pretty public for quite some time??

We know he has already used his ample influence to move the cc up in the schedule.

Rover said he didn't (kidding).

So when is the big expose on the convention center going to hit? Instead of pieces complaining about cue cards and wires on the streetcar, how about something with substance about the real expected budget of the MAPS albatross that is the convention center?

[Spartan]

I'm not saying this is what Nichols is doing but we know he really, really wants the convention center and we also know that project is going to need extra funding; maybe a lot more.

So, it's just a coincidence as they are deep into negotiations to acquire the very expensive, preferred property for this project that he suddenly comes out in the press TWICE in just a few days against one of the biggest ticket items in MAPS? And does it although the plan of action has been pretty public for quite some time??

We know he has already used his ample influence to move the cc up in the schedule.

...at the direct expense of the streetcar in the schedule.

Keep in mind this streetcar project has been bullied to no end. I've been critical of some streetcar project aspects, and I'm not beholden to it, it's just the project that my city planning understanding and pedigree gives me the highest hopes for, so it's the one I've watched closest.

Cities are built around transit, not convention centers. The engineers and oilmen who call the shots too often don't get that, so this project has been screwed over too much, and the collateral damage is going to be OKC's urban future. We have a nice city developing at a great pace right now, but I really, really want to see OKC become the next "it city."

[CaptDave]

"Noisy, ugly streetcar" - from Lackmeyer article. Really? Maybe the education Mayor Cornett mentioned should start now.

Some data about streetcar and bus noise I found in a quick search:

Portland Streetcar running 20 mph, 50 ft from measuring point - average about 77 dBa. This is supported by data contained in the following chart.

Type of Vehicle Noise in decibels
Gasoline passenger car 62-67
LRT car 72-75
Medium-sized truck 73-78
Urban diesel bus 80-85

(Adapted from: Transport Action, Transport Canada 2000, October 2001; additional data from BC Transit, 1999 and Calgary Transit)

[soonerguru]

"Noisy, ugly streetcar" - Larry Nichols in Lackmeyer article. Really?

Some data about streetcar and bus noise I found in a quick search:

Portland Streetcar running 20 mph, 50 ft from measuring point - average about 77 dBa. This is supported by data contained in the following chart.

Type of Vehicle Noise in decibels
Gasoline passenger car 62-67
LRT car 72-75
Medium-sized truck 73-78
Urban diesel bus 80-85

(Adapted from: Transport Action, Transport Canada 2000, October 2001; additional data from BC Transit, 1999 and Calgary Transit)

This seems like yellow journalism.

[CaptDave]

This seems like yellow journalism.

A little fact checking would have contributed to a better, more informative article for sure.

[soonerguru]

A little fact checking would have contributed to a better, more informative article for sure.

Fact checking is one thing, but why not consult knowledgeable members of the streetcar subcommittee about the issues raised in the article? Or why not call the consultants who are going to be building it? That is journalism 101. This is pretty basic stuff. I don't know if the writer has an agenda against the streetcar but selective editing / reporting by screening out knowledgeable sources on one side of the issue is not good journalism.

[CaptDave]

Fact checking is one thing, but why not consult knowledgeable members of the streetcar subcommittee about the issues raised in the article? That is journalism 101.

That sounds like a reasonable expectation to me.

[Spartan]

Rick Cain shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the streetcar and using him as the source to rebut none other than LN is.... What's the word?

[dankrutka]

Steve's defending against a claim on Twitter that the article is a "hit piece." Repeatedly says he's "bewildered." Worth reading over the conversation.

[soonerguru]

MAPS has already become a corrupt sham for THIS to be the only project in serious hot water when this has been the only above board, well planned project. It's time to really examine what MAPS has become. This is less like our first MAPS which was successful for tackling low hanging fruit, and more like Detroit's long list of badly, embarrassingly planned pet projects, look how that turned out.

A park we don't need anymore separated from becoming a comprehensive green span by a convention center we didn't want connected by a streetcar we won't get. There's yer stinkin MAPS right there.

One of the reasons MAPS III is not like MAPS I is that our city has changed a lot. We have more engaged / tuned in voters now. When the first MAPS was voted on, citizens were quite desperate to see any improvement. It still was a risky gambit but there was less public engagement on issues.

My neighborhood had a city-sponsored meeting this year in which city staff were going to unveil designs for a streetscape project. It was a completely packed house. I was told by city staff that they were surprised by the turnout.

One would expect MAPS III to be a bit more contentious. We have more voices -- and forums like this have provided a platform for real, unabashed discussion (note that the article we're discussing here didn't even allow reader comments. What does that say about the viability of that form of media going forward?).

As previously noted, the first MAPS had problems, it's just that the public was more forgiving -- and less involved (much more backroom management of the process).

[soonerguru]

Steve's defending against a claim on Twitter that the article is a "hit piece." Repeatedly says he's "bewildered." Worth reading over the conversation.

He's shifting the debate by responding to Spartan's comments, IMO. I'm still wondering if he did a paid book project for Nichols / Devon. To me that would make reporting on them rather suspect. The real problem with the piece is that he didn't consult knowledgeable people on the streetcar subcommittee (or the consultants) to respond to Nichols' questions. Why, I have no idea.

[ABryant]

There is always some level of noise downtown, I doubt the streetcar will rise above the level of normal daily and nightly downtown white noise. It's not like a the noise of a freight train (which passes by Midtown, the CBD, and Bricktown. It will still make a ton of noise when It no longer sounds its horns). As for the issue of the wire, It seems rather a petty complaint.

[Steve]

My book was published by Full Circle not Devon or Nichols. I get paid through royalties from sales of books. This ongoing effort by soonerguru to attack my reputation is why I am no longer participating in okctalk. Pete I can't figure out why this is allowed to continue. The

[Steve]

Nm

[Just the facts]

Well this is one big giant "I told you so".

[soonerguru]

My book was published by Full Circle not Devon or Nichols. I get paid through royalties from sales of books. This ongoing effort by soonerguru to attack my reputation is why I am no longer participating in okctalk. Pete I can't figure out why this is allowed to continue. The

It's not an "effort," it's a reasonable question. If a reporter has a financial interest in maintaining a relationship, it's a fair question to ask whether their reporting could be affected by it. Just "asking questions," as you do every day in your job. As a reader, I wonder if you will report fairly on the matter; it seems clear to me that you did not invite participation from some of the more knowledgeable members of the subcommittee who probably could have / would have answered some of Mr. Nichols' concerns. Fair? The fact the newspaper didn't allow comments after the article is bizarre. The piece reads as if it's a sounding board for one person -- admittedly a very powerful one.

[Pete]

I don't think Steve's book on the building of Devon Tower was in any way paid for by Devon. He's written several books on OKC history and developments, after all. And knowing the book business as I do, I can almost guarantee there was little money to be made here anyway.


I've said before that Nichols has an ethical responsibility to not abuse his power and influence and I stand by that statement.

The opinion of Nichols is no way just another voice, as evidenced by the all caps, somewhat misleading headline in the Oklahoman's business section: