Streetcar

[catch22]

Well unfortunately for Larry Nichols, OKC voted for the system and we will get the system.

[dankrutka]

Welp, he is entitled to his opinion. And if people don't get noisy he might get his way.

Is there any chance this is an underhanded way to divert money to the convention center they can't afford? Have cities with street cars complained of this problem?

[soonerguru]

Welp, he is entitled to his opinion. And if people don't get noisy he might get his way.

Is there any chance this is an underhanded way to divert money to the convention center they can't afford? Have cities with street cars complained of this problem?

I hate to comment on the article, since I cannot read it, but if he is trying to undermine another MAPS project, a MAPS project whose subcommittee listened to and took into account his opposition to overhead wires, than he is a dirty dealer.

I do find it amusing that the Oklahoman has disabled comments for the article. Is that to protect Larry? Seriously, it's not a crime story; why disable comments on something that is extremely public in nature and affects public money and was voted on by the public? Why is a private individual afforded a comment-free zone on a public initiative that was voted for by the taxpayers? If the Oklahoman has an ounce of credibility, it will allow public commentary on this very public issue.

I know I'm on ignore from Steve, but perhaps he will explain why the readers of the Oklahoman are not allowed to comment on the article. Is the editor BFFs with Larry?

In a couple of days or whenever I can read this, I'll be curious to see if the streetcar subcommittee was allowed comment on the article. As it appears to me now, i have no idea.

[CaptDave]

Well, I can't read the article, but it seems that King Larry is taking this down another corridor. Perhaps we should come out against the Convention Center.

On the other hand, perhaps the headline is a bit more suggestive than the actual article. Who knows? I can't read anything but the headline. Is King Larry saying we should just bag a MAPS project that was approved by the voters, as the headline implies, or is the Oklahoman just trying to get some clicks with a salacious headline?

I hate to comment on the article, since I cannot read it, but if he is trying to undermine another MAPS project, a MAPS project whose subcommittee listened to and took into account his opposition to overhead wires, than he is a dirty dealer.

I do find it amusing that the Oklahoman has disabled comments for the article. Is that to protect Larry? Seriously, it's not a crime story; why disable comments on something that is extremely public in nature and affects public money and was voted on by the public? Why is a private individual afforded a comment-free zone on a public initiative that was voted for by the taxpayers? If the Oklahoman has an ounce of credibility, it will allow public commentary on this very public issue.

I know I'm on ignore from Steve, but perhaps he will explain why the readers of the Oklahoman are not allowed to comment on the article. Is the editor BFFs with Larry?

In a couple of days or whenever I can read this, I'll be curious to see if the streetcar subcommittee was allowed comment on the article. As it appears to me now, i have no idea.

Turns out the headline is an accurate summary. This definitely presents the city leadership a dilemma. Who are they going to respond to? The citizens of Oklahoma City who voted for this project or a small group of people who think they know better than the voters? Is this going to be another moment that a grassroots effort challenges "the way it has always been done" in OKC?

[ljbab728]

I won't post the entire story for obvious reasons but here are a couple of Nichols' comments.

The streetcars are powered by an overhead wiring system known as catenary wires that are held up by cantilevered poles that extend over the street. It's those wires that spurred Nichols' recent objections.

“I don't feel very good about them at all,” Nichols said when suggested routes were discussed at last week's Oklahoma City Urban Renewal meeting. “When you say streetcar, it depends on what kind of streetcar. If you're talking about these systems you see in older cities with overhead wires, I think that will make our city very ugly … If it involves cantilevered wires, there will be substantial opposition.”

Nichols, executive chairman of Devon Energy Corp. and chairman of the Urban Renewal Authority, attempted to strip out a route recommendation that was included in a MidTown Urban Renewal Plan.
Fellow Commissioner Jim Tolbert, who also owns property in Bricktown and the Central Business District, countered that the routes recommended in the MidTown plan are more focused on stimulating economic development.

“We're saying let's put it in areas where it will stimulate development,” Tolbert said. “That's a significant role for us to play. We're entering the debate with a suggestion.”

Nichols responded that some property owners along the eventual streetcar route may not want the tracks opposite their developments.

“Having the wrong sort of streetcar will not enhance development, it will impede it,” Nichols said. “We all have the same goal. But a noisy, ugly streetcar may be a detriment to some of these areas rather than an enhancement.”

[Rover]

Good grief.

[CaptDave]

Good grief.

My reaction as well, but I think maybe for different reasons.

[soonerguru]

My reaction as well, but I think maybe for different reasons.

So was anyone from the streetcar subcommittee quoted in the piece? If so, who? And by the way, I've heard of many options discussed besides wires, and I've even heard of a hybrid solution that involves wires in parts, and no wires in others. Does the article authoritatively describe the streetcar as being supported by overhead wires? If so, that would be an oversimplification / blunder. That decision has not yet been made and many options are on the table. Were the options presented?

As for Larry Nichols, it sucks when people end up being who you thought they were. In an interesting twist, maybe he will now join forces with Ed Shadid and Pete White. Perhaps Larry will be bankrolling Ed Shadid's mayoral campaign.

[ljbab728]

So was anyone from the streetcar subcommittee quoted in the piece? If so, who? And by the way, I've heard of many options discussed besides wires, and I've even heard of a hybrid solution that involves wires in parts, and no wires in others. Does the article authoritatively describe the streetcar as being supported by overhead wires? If so, that would be an oversimplification / blunder. That decision has not yet been made and many options are on the table. Were the options presented?

I'm not going to post any more of the article so you can read it yourself to find out when it becomes completely available.

[betts]

Noisy? Ding ding? The noise coming from the construction of the Devon Tower was deafening at times. Car horns and bus engines are far noisier than the streetcar. Perhaps Larry needs to visit a city that actually has streetcars.

[CaptDave]

The article quotes Rick Cain who stated alternate power systems are available but they are unproven technology. Jane Jenkins was the only subcommittee member interviewed, but in her capacity as President of Downtown OKC. She said someone on Automobile Alley had objected to overhead wires.

Seems like wires and noise are Nichols' issues. I push back again with overhead wires being in use in truly iconic cities such as Rome, Paris, and Berlin. Noise? That is just a purposely inaccurate statement designed to sway opinion.

Modern catenary systems integrate into the streetscape extremely well. Mayor Cornett was correct in stating some education is needed - either to show those objecting to overhead wires what modern systems look like, or educating the general public about them and the cost tradeoffs associated with using unproven more expensive technology.

[soonerguru]

Noisy? Ding ding? The noise coming from the construction of the Devon Tower was deafening at times. Car horns and bus engines are far noisier than the streetcar. Perhaps Larry needs to visit a city that actually has streetcars.

He'll see it up close from an airtight limo. Not gonna happen. He thinks cities should be perfectly manicured lawns and plantings and QUIET. Strange. "Quiet" is not a goal most have for a lively, bustling city, but remember, his idea of urban utopia is Houston.

[soonerguru]

The article quotes Rick Cain who stated alternate power systems are available but they are unproven technology. Jane Jenkins was the only subcommittee member interviewed, but in her capacity as President of Downtown OKC. She said someone on Automobile Alley had objected to overhead wires.

Seems like wires and noise are Nichols issues. I push back again with overhead wires being in use in truly iconic cities such as Rome, Paris, and Berlin. Modern catenary systems integrate into the streetscape extremely well. Mayor Cornett was correct in stating some education is needed - either to show those objecting to overhead wires what modern systems look like, or educating the general public about them and the cost tradeoffs associated with using unproven more expensive technology.

That is disappointing. It's unfortunate that some of the real knowledgeable folks on the subcommittee about different streetcar technologies weren't consulted for the article. As for Rick Cain, is he an expert on streetcar technologies?

[Spartan]

If there isn't mass mobilization and a salvaging of MAPS this streetcar doesn't happen and all that DOES actually happen is a convention center and some senior centers in abandoned suburban strip malls...or wherever the bids decide.

MAPS as a concept will be dead and OKC will go the way of Tulsa, but with more skyscrapers, because it looks like more people are willing to make that political calculation than we thought. As unthinkable as it is, there is no accord with the voters. The streetcar was the only big project over 50% support.

So we'll have to see how this goes, but I hope OKC is ready for a fight. This latest piece from Steve is a hit piece. I have defended Lackmeyer and his journalism for years and years, and ive been unflappable in that defense., but that's what this - it's a hit piece to win some more favor from Larry Nichols. I thought he was an honorable journalist.

[soonerguru]

If there isn't mass mobilization and a salvaging of MAPS this streetcar doesn't happen and all that DOES actually happen is a convention center and some senior centers in abandoned suburban strip malls...or wherever the bids decide.

MAPS as a concept will be dead and OKC will go the way of Tulsa, but with more skyscrapers, because it looks like more people are willing to make that political calculation than we thought. As unthinkable as it is, there is no accord with the voters. The streetcar was the only big project over 50% support.

So we'll have to see how this goes, but I hope OKC is ready for a fight. This latest piece from Steve is a hit piece. I have defended Lackmeyer and his journalism for years and years, and ive been unflappable in that defense., but that's what this - it's a hit piece to win some more favor from Larry Nichols. I thought he was an honorable journalist.

Did Steve Lackmeyer do a paid book project for Devon / Larry Nichols? For some reason, I thought he did. If he has been personally paid by the person he is reporting on, that would at least merit a northern tilted eyebrow.

I'm not sure I would characterize this as a "hit," but it's weird the Oklahoman doesn't allow comments after it. Also, if it's not a hit, it seems to not be very thorough about the alternatives to overhead wires, and it seems not much if any effort was made by the writer to reach out to more knowledgeable sources on the subcommittee who could speak to / answer some of Larry's concerns, for example, about noise. How would Jane Jenkins be able to answer that?

It will be interesting to see how much of a sock puppet this city is to Larry Nichols. Can one man decide for everyone else? That seems to be the question.

[zookeeper]

I like Ed Shadid, I really do. I don't like his saying one thing in a campaign and doing another as a councilman.

With apologies to those who don't have high-speed Internet, here is a high-resolution scan of an Ed Shadid mailer sent to my home in the last election.

Please notice what I boxed in red about MAPS 3. I'm sure glad I keep these things.

Also notice what he says about Swinton on that topic.

[king183]

This is extremely disappointing. I often see Mr. Nichols at Flint; next time, I'll politely interrupt his dinner to tell him to stop undermining the will of the voters of OKC. I will be proud to work against any elected official who follows him down this terrible path. If the city follows his advice, I won't support another MAPS program.

[CaptDave]

I sincerely hope Dr Shadid keeps that promise.

[Spartan]

This is extremely disappointing. I often see Mr. Nichols at Flint; next time, I'll politely interrupt his dinner to tell him to stop undermining the will of the voters of OKC. I will be proud to work against any elected official who follows him down this terrible path. If the city follows his advice, I won't support another MAPS program.

MAPS has already become a corrupt sham for THIS to be the only project in serious hot water when this has been the only above board, well planned project. It's time to really examine what MAPS has become. This is less like our first MAPS which was successful for tackling low hanging fruit, and more like Detroit's long list of badly, embarrassingly planned pet projects, look how that turned out.

A park we don't need anymore separated from becoming a comprehensive green span by a convention center we didn't want connected by a streetcar we won't get. There's yer stinkin MAPS right there.

[soonerguru]

This is extremely disappointing. I often see Mr. Nichols at Flint; next time, I'll politely interrupt his dinner to tell him to stop undermining the will of the voters of OKC. I will be proud to work against any elected official who follows him down this terrible path. If the city follows his advice, I won't support another MAPS program.

Larry Nichols would be responsible for splitting this city in two and undermining MAPS for a generation. What an arrogant SOB.

[betts]

I think Mayor Cornett is right and education is necessary. For those of us interested, we've made it a point to learn all we can; we've seen streetcars in operation and ridden them. If your only exposure is the San Francisco cable car or cities that have a network of overhead wires, then incorrect assumptions could be made. We spent a huge amount of time and energy trying to educate people about the route, but perhaps we need people to understand what the modern streetcar is like to ride, how it sounds and what different propulsion systems look like.

[OKCisOK4me]

Forget MAPS IV. I didn't vote for MAPS III to watch my streetcar disappear.

[Spartan]

I want everyone reading this thread to keep in mind that this is the first time I have ever strayed from defending Lackmeyer on everything. I truly have been unflappable in my defense of him until now.

This is significant. This is the worst journalism he has ever done, much more typical than the usual news coverage out of the Dark Tower. I am stunned. Lackmeyer is more the story here than Nichols is, who I doubt said all of this in a specific streetcar discussion or interview aside from some other function.

[CaptDave]

That may be accurate Spartan. After re-reading the article, it does seem pieced together from a few events and not a cohesive discussion about the streetcar.

[blangtang]

I haven't read the article, but if its in the Op-Ed section I'm okay with it.

But if its in the business section, then i agree its a puff piece.

Maybe this is a trial balloon to see if anyone will really get outraged at the dismantling of specific MAPs projects, making it more of a pool of grab-all $$ for whoever has the most pull for whatever pet project.