Scissortail Park

[UnFrSaKn]

I'm only talking about 2-3 buildings that have been there before any of us were born and deserve to be repurposed and incorporated into "the new" rather than knocked to the ground. The Film Exchange Building is the original film exchange building before the one on Film Row. I know the present is what everyone cares about but most know what happens if clearing whole city blocks for that sole purpose has done to the city in the past. Have you been to the Braniff Building and eaten at Kitchen No. 324? How ugly was that building before it was given new life and adds to the character of that block and dining atmosphere.

[bradh]

Have you been to the Braniff Building and eaten at Kitchen No. 324? How ugly was that building before it was given new life and adds to the character of that block and dining atmosphere.

No not yet, but I go to Joey's on Film Row quite a bit and love it, does that count?

[soonerguru]

This is such a northsider perspective.

OKC used to have a fabulous riverside neighborhood. Wheeler Park and especially Delmar Gardens were far closer to Central Park than this MAPS3 "Central Park" will ever be. It was lush, beautiful, and very active. Yes it used to flood a lot so the Army Corps of Engineers clear cut the whole area and damned up the river so we could instead mow it for the next 60 years. They solved the problem of a wild and untamed river flooding occasionally into a beautiful urban area by eliminating the beautiful urban area.

One of the buildings the city is going to wipe away is the original Film Exchange before all that activity migrated to the western edge of downtown. What's funny about the northsider perspective on downtown is that they've remained consistently moderately involved with downtown. In the OKC of old, the Capitol Hill community and greater southside was more connected to downtown and what's changed over the decades is that the southside has been completely cut off from downtown and hence today's descendants of Capitol Hill, Southeast, and U.S. Grant people all live south of I-240. Another thing that made me laugh the other day was when Steve Lackmeyer boasted on his chat that soon "downtown" will stretch from the river, to NW 13th, to Western, to Lincoln. As if it doesn't already?? In the 1960s city leaders were boasting that soon downtown was going to stretch west to Penn. That was visionary, perhaps too much so.

Along Robinson are a lot of great old buildings that could easily be renovated into a remarkable district wi PLENTY of room for newer infill. You guys should really drive around Robinson, S Broadway, and Shields. There's old bones there, at least much historic fabric as exists in Midtown, and you don't see anyone saying Midtown is a desolate wasteland shantytown that should be wiped clean. The problem here is that the northside still has no respect for the southside.

Excellent post with great historical perspective and context. We have to be thinking of reintegrating the real inner city of OKC, from, say, NW 23rd on the north side to SW 29th on the south.

[Rover]

This is such a northsider perspective.

OKC used to have a fabulous riverside neighborhood. Wheeler Park and especially Delmar Gardens were far closer to Central Park than this MAPS3 "Central Park" will ever be. It was lush, beautiful, and very active. Yes it used to flood a lot so the Army Corps of Engineers clear cut the whole area and damned up the river so we could instead mow it for the next 60 years. They solved the problem of a wild and untamed river flooding occasionally into a beautiful urban area by eliminating the beautiful urban area.

One of the buildings the city is going to wipe away is the original Film Exchange before all that activity migrated to the western edge of downtown. What's funny about the northsider perspective on downtown is that they've remained consistently moderately involved with downtown. In the OKC of old, the Capitol Hill community and greater southside was more connected to downtown and what's changed over the decades is that the southside has been completely cut off from downtown and hence today's descendants of Capitol Hill, Southeast, and U.S. Grant people all live south of I-240. Another thing that made me laugh the other day was when Steve Lackmeyer boasted on his chat that soon "downtown" will stretch from the river, to NW 13th, to Western, to Lincoln. As if it doesn't already?? In the 1960s city leaders were boasting that soon downtown was going to stretch west to Penn. That was visionary, perhaps too much so.

Along Robinson are a lot of great old buildings that could easily be renovated into a remarkable district wi PLENTY of room for newer infill. You guys should really drive around Robinson, S Broadway, and Shields. There's old bones there, at least much historic fabric as exists in Midtown, and you don't see anyone saying Midtown is a desolate wasteland shantytown that should be wiped clean. The problem here is that the northside still has no respect for the southside.

I could easily say that south siders have a chip on their shoulders. I don't understand this divisiveness. I had relatives with businesses in Capital Hill. I did business there myself for quite awhile. I have lived north and south of 1-40. I hardly ever hear north siders comment north or south in derisive tones, but hear it quite a lot from Southsiders. It will be great when we are OKCitians and not north OR south siders.

BTW, I wasn't calling the permanent structures shanty town. Pre ww2 there was an ACTUAL shanty town in the area and there was a work camp too. That is ALSO a part of the history of the area. Destructive flooding was part of the history, as well. I don't know about the lushness of wheeler Park so I will take your word for it that the new park disrespects it.

I actually see a functioning central park there as being a good thing, bringing citizens from near south and near north to use it together instead of continuing an apparent north south schism.

As to the retaining of current buildings there, I understand the passion about a few...but the shacks and dilapidated cinder block buildings not so much.

Also, the day that Capital Hill starts becoming something better, then maybe I will understand comparing the park area to midtown, but I don't think it is anywhere near the same opportunity now, nor will be without the considerable investment the city is preparing to make there.

[Spartan]

I could easily say that south siders have a chip on their shoulders. I don't understand this divisiveness. I had relatives with businesses in Capital Hill. I did business there myself for quite awhile. I have lived north and south of 1-40. I hardly ever hear north siders comment north or south in derisive tones, but hear it quite a lot from Southsiders. It will be great when we are OKCitians and not north OR south siders.

BTW, I wasn't calling the permanent structures shanty town. Pre ww2 there was an ACTUAL shanty town in the area and there was a work camp too. That is ALSO a part of the history of the area. Destructive flooding was part of the history, as well. I don't know about the lushness of wheeler Park so I will take your word for it that the new park disrespects it.

I actually see a functioning central park there as being a good thing, bringing citizens from near south and near north to use it together instead of continuing an apparent north south schism.

As to the retaining of current buildings there, I understand the passion about a few...but the shacks and dilapidated cinder block buildings not so much.

Also, the day that Capital Hill starts becoming something better, then maybe I will understand comparing the park area to midtown, but I don't think it is anywhere near the same opportunity now, nor will be without the considerable investment the city is preparing to make there.

You say the south side of downtown is just a shanty town and then turn around and say southsiders have a chip on their shoulder when you get called out. Then in your myopic defense you incorporate the phrase "the day that Capital (it's Capitol, which is another historically significant difference) Hill starts becoming something better, then maybe I will understand..."

I'm starting #totalrovermove or #TRM

If you think we want to see wooden shacks and cinderblock buildings preserved you don't get it. There is WAY more than that in this area that is being clear cut by people who have no basis of understanding and thus, the exact same perspective that your doling out on this forum. That's extremely dangerous.

[Spartan]

I could easily say that south siders have a chip on their shoulders. I don't understand this divisiveness. I had relatives with businesses in Capital Hill. I did business there myself for quite awhile. I have lived north and south of 1-40. I hardly ever hear north siders comment north or south in derisive tones, but hear it quite a lot from Southsiders. It will be great when we are OKCitians and not north OR south siders.

BTW, I wasn't calling the permanent structures shanty town. Pre ww2 there was an ACTUAL shanty town in the area and there was a work camp too. That is ALSO a part of the history of the area. Destructive flooding was part of the history, as well. I don't know about the lushness of wheeler Park so I will take your word for it that the new park disrespects it.

I actually see a functioning central park there as being a good thing, bringing citizens from near south and near north to use it together instead of continuing an apparent north south schism.

As to the retaining of current buildings there, I understand the passion about a few...but the shacks and dilapidated cinder block buildings not so much.

Also, the day that Capital Hill starts becoming something better, then maybe I will understand comparing the park area to midtown, but I don't think it is anywhere near the same opportunity now, nor will be without the considerable investment the city is preparing to make there.

I'm not saying I don't want a park on the selected site. But let's do it right. Let's not do 7 extremely random projects because we have money that demands we find out how to spend it. There are ways to spend it wisely. The streetcar and river projects are just about the only MAPS3 initiatives that make any sense at all.

[Shipwreck]

[QUOTE=Rover;667498]I could easily say that south siders have a chip on their shoulders. I don't understand this divisiveness.[QUOTE]

Actually, there is historic precedence for the South vs North views and it can go either way. Back during the 20's-30's Oklahoma City had rat problems. These pesky little varmints were picked up and often dumped in bunches south of the river. Youngsters and folks living north would often "plink" at said varmints along the south river back with .22 rifles. During the 20's and through the depression years, shanty towns were also constructed along the riverfront south. In 1923 many of these poor locals were destroyed by flooding, making the matter more complicated and heartbreaking. The depression years really created the stigma though that anything south, which was mostly rural and farmland past the river 'district', was occupied by nothing more than poor white trash. Hence the divide. Southsiders have always defended their side and the north, albeit unintentionally have often condemned or degraded southsiders. Like the whole bedlam thing. Today, it isn't so bad as demographics and living conditions, especially further south, have changed so much since the 50's, when new neighborhoods and so much more really developed south.

[Popsy]

I'm not saying I don't want a park on the selected site. But let's do it right. Let's not do 7 extremely random projects because we have money that demands we find out how to spend it. There are ways to spend it wisely. The streetcar and river projects are just about the only MAPS3 initiatives that make any sense at all.

Drop the streetcar from what you said and you will be right on. Until you have a decent bus system working a streetcar makes no sense when there are so many poor and aged citizens needing a good bus system. The streetcar does not address their needs at all.

[Just the facts]

The good news in this park disaster is that it will be easy to undo these mistakes. Why is it such a forign concept to connect park sidewalks to the sidewalks of the adjacent streets. Everyone person who visits this park is going to have to get in it on foot. I am thinking the designers of this park have never designed a T6/T5 park.

[Spartan]

The good news in this park disaster is that it will be easy to undo these mistakes. Why is it such a forign concept to connect park sidewalks to the sidewalks of the adjacent streets. Everyone person who visits this park is going to have to get in it on foot. I am thinking the designers of this park have never designed a T6/T5 park.

Wrong. We will be stuck with a convention center separating two parks for the next 40-50 years until we tear that down, too. We will never rebuild what's left of the historic building stock. We will never again have the unique opportunities we have now. We are asking consultants from SF to ask us here in flyover country what to do with this moment in time in this city, and we are failing. We will be writing literature on what a failure this is turning out to be, and I say that as one of MAPS3's biggest campaign cheerleaders.

[Just the facts]

Well, I meant the failures of the park itself. You're right that we can never fix what the park replaced.

On a 'bigger picture' thought, the MAPS model seems to have a fatal flaw in that plans are made years before they are excuted. That wasn't such a problem with MAPS I because OKC wasn't changing that fast back then (if at all). Modern day OKC is changing every month so making plans 5 to 7 years out doesn't make sense anymore because all the planning assumptions change by the time we get to implementing them.

[Snowman]

MAPS had at least some changes too, it seemed like the library jumped locations like a dozen time and the trolleys were clearly not the original plan either. Not sure about what changes went on with the Ballpark or Arena but things like renovating the Cox center, Civic Center and placing dams in the river have less ways they would change from the original plan.

In a couple projects I liked the original pitches more than way they have morphed as planing has moved along

[Spartan]

Well, I meant the failures of the park itself. You're right that we can never fix what the park replaced.

On a 'bigger picture' thought, the MAPS model seems to have a fatal flaw in that plans are made years before they are excuted. That wasn't such a problem with MAPS I because OKC wasn't changing that fast back then (if at all). Modern day OKC is changing every month so making plans 5 to 7 years out doesn't make sense anymore because all the planning assumptions change by the time we get to implementing them.

That is a factor, but overall there is not nearly enough planning that is happening with these projects. We have replaced planning with consulting. The entire process has been handed over to high-dollar out of town consultants. The planning department is almost barred from touching any of these projects, when they should be in the driver's seat.

[Urban Pioneer]

I'm absolutely shocked that there isn't something of an "end cap" promenade where this park should meets the Oklahoma River. Its as if their scope of work stopped a block short. The newly dammed river is (or should be) the jewel "discovery" at the southern end of the linear length of all the parks along the "Harvey Spine". I say put Humphrey's ferris wheel there like Santa Monica.

People b**ch and moan about the streetcar process, but I see very little public input incorporated here. Most notably the carousel that was aggressively lobbied for by citizens.

And note, the Park Subcommitte desperately wants the streetcar to have a stop directly on the park itself to help ensure it's success. And that ongoing effort to have that stop there is being aggressively lobbied for regardless of the ineffeciencies and illegibility that it may cause to overall system design.

Just say'in.

[Spartan]

Additionally, we're not getting Hargreaves best work. I don't know if they're over-extended after designing London's Olympic Park, but this is the night shift. The day shift has done some great things.

In Little Rock, their work on the Clinton Library grounds was phenomenal, where they reclaimed blackfield downstream from downtown. They overlaid the street grids of both Little Rock and North Little Rock, redesigned the grounds into a series of Indian mounds (at least that's what I immediately recognize), and the library structure itself is designed to be a "bridge to the future" while the site also incorporates a rustic old railroad bridge across the Arkansas River as the "bridge to the past." This project got an absolute A+ for incorporating REALLY COOL locally unique features.


In Nashville they designed the Cumberland Park with locally unique features like a rock climbing wall made of Tennessee sandstone. The park design mimics Tennessee's landscape of rolling hills, valleys, and ridges. The sightlines highlight an iconic truss bridge across the river and the park also features a restored gentry crane and catwalk that provide cool views of passing boats. These are all things we would have clearcut out of the way for "progress."


In Houston I think they did a fairly boilerplate park on a difficult site surrounded by superblocks, but they pulled it off. That park design was dominated by bright, vibrant colors that remind me of Houston's hispanic heritage and the flora is dominated by the exact same big, beautiful live oak trees that are iconic of my favorite parts of Houston, like the Rice area, River Oaks, and Heights.


What's frustrating here is that there are some design elements, including one already built (SkyDance Bridge), that were truly hit out of the ballpark. Hans Butzer's SkyDance Bridge design is the kind of ingenuity that this Central Park is utterly lacking. And typical of MAPS3 projects, where there's a logical and obvious way to hit a home run and build on something great about OKC, we are instead going the route blazed by the consultant we hired to run off with all of our planning funds.


Incorporating a local connection into this caliber of design is what elevates something that's nice to be truly special. That's what we're NOT doing.

[Urban Pioneer]

I think the heavy "natural vegetation" and the urban forrest scheme is leaning towards something that is as low maintenance as possible. Thus the eleminated early ammenities.

[Urban Pioneer]

Maybe the carousel is there. Now noting the "amusement area" and a round structure depicted. I hope so. Most great cities with great parks have carousels. Even San Francisco has one at Mascone Center.

Plus they can generate money to pay for park O&M.

[ljbab728]

I say put Humphrey's ferris wheel there like Santa Monica.

He might have other ideas about that. LOL

[Just the facts]

The questions is - is anyone using these parks in any significant numbers? OKC is planning a park big enough to support 100,000 residents in the immediate area. The parks should be sized to support the number of anticipated daily visitors. Anyhow, that ship has already sailed I am afraid that 360 days a year we are going to be stuck maintaining a park that is grossly over-sized - like buying a 20 bedroom house for a family of 4. Without sufficient usage and 'eyes on the park' I suspect a good deal of maintenance will go towards getting urban campers out and picking up used condoms.

[Urban Pioneer]

he might have other ideas about that. Lol

lol

[Rover]

You say the south side of downtown is just a shanty town and then turn around and say southsiders have a chip on their shoulder when you get called out. Then in your myopic defense you incorporate the phrase "the day that Capital (it's Capitol, which is another historically significant difference) Hill starts becoming something better, then maybe I will understand..."

I'm starting #totalrovermove or #TRM

If you think we want to see wooden shacks and cinderblock buildings preserved you don't get it. There is WAY more than that in this area that is being clear cut by people who have no basis of understanding and thus, the exact same perspective that your doling out on this forum. That's extremely dangerous.

I didn't say it IS a shanty town but WAS. I believe that is historically correct. From the depression to WW 2 it WAS. There was also a work camp there. That is what I have read. If wrong, dispute it and i will gladly correct it. You keep trying to put judgements into the statement, so YES it does appear a chip on at least your shoulder. I haven't a PERSPECTIVE on it, just an observation.

[Rover]

Sorry I offended you on Capital vs Capitol. That must be a north side typo.

[bradh]

The questions is - is anyone using these parks in any significant numbers? OKC is planning a park big enough to support 100,000 residents in the immediate area. The parks should be sized to support the number of anticipated daily visitors. Anyhow, that ship has already sailed I am afraid that 360 days a year we are going to be stuck maintaining a park that is grossly over-sized - like buying a 20 bedroom house for a family of 4. Without sufficient usage and 'eyes on the park' I suspect a good deal of maintenance will go towards getting urban campers out and picking up used condoms.

Improvements like this park are one of the reasons why my family is even considering moving downtown from our current Lake Hefner neighborhood. Even if we don't move, we'd use the park like we do Myriad, the river amentities, and other downtown attractions.

[soonerguru]

The questions is - is anyone using these parks in any significant numbers? OKC is planning a park big enough to support 100,000 residents in the immediate area. The parks should be sized to support the number of anticipated daily visitors. Anyhow, that ship has already sailed I am afraid that 360 days a year we are going to be stuck maintaining a park that is grossly over-sized - like buying a 20 bedroom house for a family of 4. Without sufficient usage and 'eyes on the park' I suspect a good deal of maintenance will go towards getting urban campers out and picking up used condoms.

Within a mile of my house, we have Will Rogers Park and a small park with a sprayground and basketball court.

Will Rogers is always being used; the pavilions are seemingly always rented, the pool is a popular destination, there are always folks throwing frisbees around, and the tennis courts are frequently in use. The gardens could be better marketed in my opinion as well as the many events at the garden center.

The other park is always full of people. It is a delight. There are always kids on the sprayground, and there are good basketball games to watch on the court constantly.

As for downtown, the Myriad Gardens is frequently full of people and has become a major destination in OKC.

[CaptDave]

This is classic "chicken and egg" or "if you build it they will come". One of the city's goals is redevelopment of the Core to Shore area. It will eventually happen in one fashion or another, but this park will be a catalyst for residential redevelopment of that area. I seriously doubt it will look exactly like the C2S renderings but this park will be one of the primary draws for people looking to move from suburbs to a downtown neighborhood. Of course there are other issues that need to be resolved (mainly schools) for that inflow to really take off, but I would gladly move to that area and into a smaller home/yard if there was a nice place like this to get outdoors. Combine this with Wheeler Park across I40 and you have the makings for a neighborhood similar to Edgemere but with more mixed use along the Boulevard and the other major throuroughfares.