Effect of the original MAPS on the OKC metro and Oklahoma

[traxx]

I'm not sure if anything like this has been discussed on here before but if it has then just merge threads.

If one actually stops and thinks about what MAPS did to OKC, it is really quite stunning. I was in college or maybe had just graduated when MAPS was passed. At first I was excited about all the stuff they said it would build. But it got off to such a slow start, I lost confidence and began to believe that it was like all the other OKC pie in the sky that we'd been sold over the years and that it would never happen and we'd never see the money again, or it'd be scaled down and done in a crappy cheap manner.

What a difference 20+ years makes.

It's pretty obvious that had it not been for the original MAPS and the subsequent MAPS we wouldn't have all the building going on in our downtown districts right now. Devon Tower would've never been a thought. We would've never been looked at as a temporary home for the NOLA Hornets and later as a landing place for the Sonics/Thunder. We would've never had world class rowing on the Canadian/Oklahoma river nor all of the development and proposed development on the river for such activities. All the hotels, condos and apartments would've never been dreamed of downtown. No one would've ever thought of putting a school or a grocery store downtown.

Looking at downtown all of that stuff is rather obvious. But MAPS has affected central Oklahoma in ways that aren't immediately obvious. Edmond is investing in it's old downtown. Business and retail developments are being produced to a higher standard than they were. Uptown Grocery would've never been believed to be a successful concept 15 or 20 years ago. Talk of high density living in Norman is not looked at as crazy and is a real possibility. All over central Oklahoma you can see businesses and residential going up that has a higher and sometimes more urban feel to it. In short, people are taking more pride in what they produce in Oklahoma now. We're not just tossing up ugly, disposable buildings and strip malls. People here finally realize that they can reach higher when building a development and make it nicer and better and more successful.

I know ther's still developments around here that aren't up to the standards that we wish, but we've come a long way from where we were in the 80s. Our standards and quality have been raised. Our expectations have been raised. You can no longer entice us with some crappy concept and have us be thankful for even considering building in Oklahoma. People are taking chances on businesses here in central Oklahoma that would've been deemd insane 20 years ago.

I know Tulsa had big plans for downtown and on the river front and a lot of it's fallen by the wayside. I hope they can turn things around and be as successful as OKC. I know there's sometimes animosity between the two cities but I think it benifits Oklahoma as a whole if it has two successful cities.

Coming back to my main point. Think of all the things we have now or coming up in the pipeline that we never would've had if it weren't for MAPS.

[Pete]

There was a MAPS Impact Study conducted by the City back in 2003 and updated around 2008.

The numbers below reflect the just-announced Devon project and I'm working on the list of other things that were included in their projections, so we can then add everything else that has been announced since.

The original MAPS was passed in 1993 and raised about $360 million.

[bchris02]

You also can't just think about what wouldn't have been developed, but what would have been lost. OKC likely would have kept losing most of its educated young people. Because of the development today more OU and OSU grads are staying here rather than going to Texas. Companies and jobs would have continued to pull out of OKC. We could very well have been looking at Detroit in Central Oklahoma had OKC remained on the path it was on in the 1980s. MAPS truly turned OKC around.

[Pete]

Yep, things were pretty bad in the late 80's and early 90's.

I left in 1989 and the primary reason was the poor economy and lack of opportunity.

[Urbanized]

City officials also projected at the time of the original MAPS campaign that OKC could see up to $80 million in private investment as a result of the MAPS projects. I know at times there are debates on here regarding hitting budgets/timelines throughout MAPS, but that is perhaps the most important projection they missed, but in a very GOOD way. They missed it by a mile. Or a light-year.

[Bellaboo]

I believe the white water rafting course will be one of the biggest draws in Maps 3. In past years I've ran into many people who would travel from the DFW Metroplex to Southeastern Oklahoma to float and raft the rivers. The only other comparable facility is in Charlotte...that's a long commute from anywhere but the east coast. We can be a huge draw for white water enthusiasts from several of our surrounding states. I feel it'll have more of an impact than anticipated.

[flintysooner]

Yep, things were pretty bad in the late 80's and early 90's.

I left in 1989 and the primary reason was the poor economy and lack of opportunity.

Yes and every July 5 I remember the Penn Square failure.

It didn't seem so bad at first but that began a 10 year period of astonishingly steep sales declines and just as steep inclines for bad debts and delinquencies for a very broad range of Oklahoma businesses. Truly could not cut costs fast enough to keep up with the mounting losses. Inventories diminished in value practically while one was watching. Pretty sobering to watch a decade or two worth of investment and work disappear so quickly.

You know you really don't know the future but you kind of lull yourself into believing you know a little about the short term. But it's just a happy fiction.

[Spartan]

Before this turns into a, "OKC's growth is keeping the rest of the state alive" thread, I would submit that OKC's growth has actually come at the expense of some Oklahoma cities. Certainly Tulsa. Especially Enid. Conversely, there are a lot of Oklahoma cities that are benefiting the most from OKC's growth - namely Norman and Stillwater. It's a mixed bag.

Were it not for MAPS, I would bet that affairs in Oklahoma would have continued exactly as they were. Tulsa probably would be close to eclipsing OKC in population, and certainly economic output as well. Tulsa would have continued to get all the state's college graduates that didn't leave, which would have given that city the cultural revolution that resulted in OKC's urban resurgence.

Now, I think that the state is a lot better off with OKC as the booming metropolis. Tulsa is doing stuff and will turn it around, but for the most part the rest of the state including Tulsa will start to reap rewards once OKC kicks it into overdrive with growth. The next phase, in which OKC becomes the next Austin or Charlotte, is right around the corner.

[Jake]

Being a huge Thunder fan, I have to thank MAPS. Obviously MAPS has benefitted OKC in numerous other ways, but the Thunder are perhaps the most visible on a national scale and the one that I personally interact with most on almost a daily basis. (I visit Daily Thunder pretty much every day. It's unhealthy.)

It's good to live in a thriving city such as OKC. Seeing what's happening with Detroit, we're fortunate that OKC is doing so well. MAPS is a big part of that, along with the the people and organizations that are striving to make the city a great place to live.

Hopefully OKC can/will keep the momentum going!

[Pete]

Enid is thriving. This is an article from just four days ago talking about a housing shortage due to all the growth with plenty more expected:

Booming Enid Needs At Least 600 New Homes Within the Next Two Years | KGOU


You could argue Tulsa has benefited from OKC's rise due to the increased positive national exposure brought to the state in general.

You could also say the great success of MAPS and the impact afterwards has given Tulsa a big kick in the tail and caused them to pass similar plans of their own.

And finally, the great prosperity OKC is experiencing certainly gets spread to the state's universities, not only due to increased tax revenues but also great increases in contributions. Increased funding for universities help the entire state.


I really think this is a case of a rising tide (OKC) lifting all ships (the state).

[bradh]

Despite losing Continental, I believe Koch is growing quite a bit up in Enid.

[Spartan]

Enid is thriving. This is an article from just four days ago talking about a housing shortage due to all the growth with plenty more expected:

Booming Enid Needs At Least 600 New Homes Within the Next Two Years | KGOU


You could argue Tulsa has benefited from OKC's rise due to the increased positive national exposure brought to the state in general.

You could also say the great success of MAPS and the impact afterwards has given Tulsa a big kick in the tail and caused them to pass similar plans of their own.

And finally, the great prosperity OKC is experiencing certainly gets spread to the state's universities, not only due to increased tax revenues but also great increases in contributions. Increased funding for universities help the entire state.


I really think this is a case of a rising tide (OKC) lifting all ships (the state).

The rise of Texas came at the expense of Cali's growth. Florida's explosion came at the expense of Ohio and Queens, NY. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, regardless of how distant it is (I'm good friends w a graduate researcher at Case Western who is studying the notion of a space equilibrium portal between Cleveland's predominantly Jewish east side and SE Florida).

Tulsa has simply not used that kick in the rear and harnessed it in any positive way. Their civic dialog is so overwhelmingly negative and destructive. Their idea of a MAPS for Tulsa is corporate welfare. They missed the point. Here in OKC our ED plan is quality of life. Tulsa's QoL plan is faith, freedom, and family, still stuck in the 1990s, blissfully unaware of how unattractive that is to people who would otherwise love to live in Tulsa. It's a beautiful city with gorgeous neighborhoods and districts nestled in scenic topography. They need a Cathy O'Connor, not a Kathy Taylor. And definitely not a Dewey Bartlett.

OKC is showing how even at its worst, which we have probably accomplished at this point, professional civic leadership is still better than unprofessional civic leadership at its worst.

That is good to see about Enid!

[Rover]

I agree that OKC's boom has not hindered Tulsa in any way. Tulsa's dysfunctional government and leadership is what has hurt Tulsa (read "beware OKC", we don't want to create the same dysfunction). Tulsa also has been in the grip of old school, old money plutocrats who thought Tulsa had already "arrived" (also read "beware OKC"). When everyone starts believing their own BS and quits working their butts off to make progress, it gets dangerous.

So, again I agree with Pete. Tulsans have take notice of what has happened here and are starting to demand more from their business community and city leadership. I think OKC post 2000 has been a wake up call to them. They have a very bright future, but I think now will always be Robin to our Batman. Together they work great.

[bradh]

When everyone starts believing their own BS and quits working their butts off to make progress, it gets dangerous.

That quote oughta be framed and hung on the walls of city hall, the Chamber, and everywhere else in town.

[Spartan]

I agree that OKC's boom has not hindered Tulsa in any way. Tulsa's dysfunctional government and leadership is what has hurt Tulsa (read "beware OKC", we don't want to create the same dysfunction). Tulsa also has been in the grip of old school, old money plutocrats who thought Tulsa had already "arrived" (also read "beware OKC"). When everyone starts believing their own BS and quits working their butts off to make progress, it gets dangerous.

So, again I agree with Pete. Tulsans have take notice of what has happened here and are starting to demand more from their business community and city leadership. I think OKC post 2000 has been a wake up call to them. They have a very bright future, but I think now will always be Robin to our Batman. Together they work great.

The reality though is that we still need ALL of OU/OSU's grads to move to OKC after graduation at least until OKC starts becoming a national draw. The reality is graduates of the UC system, Big Ten and ACC schools, etc., are a lot likelier to end up in Charlotte and Austin than OKC right now. That's where we have to get to in order to diversify our economy and in order to not need ALL of the state's best human capital. What I'm saying is when we get to that point, then naturally more in state grads will infuse Tulsa again and THEN the rising tide will lift all boats. But until then we're deadlocked for human capital and ED. That's reality, it's a small state after all.

[Pete]

I know Tulsa is struggling but I think it would be worse without OKC's success to serve as a road map.

They've made some progress and in many respects I think the OKC/Tulsa rivalry has motivated them.


And while OKC and the state in general is still not a big draw for young professionals nationally, every time I come back to OKC I meet more and more people who have moved from elsewhere due to work opportunities. We also see them on this site. So, that is starting to change and I think at some point the ball will really start rolling down hill.

That's how true boom towns stay fueled: A constant flow of people moving in from elsewhere, and not just regionally.

[bradh]

I
And while OKC and the state in general is still not a big draw for young professionals nationally, every time I come back to OKC I meet more and more people who have moved from elsewhere due to work opportunities. We also see them on this site. So, that is starting to change and I think at some point the ball will really start rolling down hill.

That's how I'm here. When I was asked to transfer here, I called my wife and asked her what she thought of OKC. Her response was "to visit?" and I said "no, how about to live?" Her response was the human equivalent of the losing trombone on The Price is Right.

Now, 5 years later, we love it and are big advocates of the city to all our friends and family. We even have some friends looking at opportunities here to move and work.

[adaniel]

^
I frankly had no intentions of staying in this area after I graduated in 2009. If I were to be completely honest, it took me a while to warm up to OKC and the temptation was there to move back to TX. But I am glad I waited it out, and definitely tell OKC's story when I am out of town.

I too have noticed a lot of people who moved here from out of the area. A few months ago, I actually ran into someone I knew in high school at Walmart! He told me he moved up here for a job and ended up liking it far more than he thought.

[bradh]

^
I frankly had no intentions of staying in this area after I graduated in 2009. If I were to be completely honest, it took me a while to warm up to OKC and the temptation was there to move back to TX. But I am glad I waited it out, and definitely tell OKC's story when I am out of town.

I too have noticed a lot of people who moved here from out of the area. A few months ago, I actually ran into someone I knew in high school at Walmart! He told me he moved up here for a job and ended up liking it far more than he thought.

Everytime I visit back home in suburban west Houston I am so thankful I don't live there anymore. Even if it would provide us more help with the kiddo, I have no desire to go back.

[Pete]

Houston's problems (over-population, expense, traffic, etc.) are perhaps the best possible opportunity for OKC to achieve rapid growth.

We aren't likely to get a big company or a bunch of mid-sized ones to move here from L.A. or Seattle or New York. But Houston is a mess in many ways and OKC offers a great alternative.

I know we don't want to become too dependent on oil & gas but we have a great nucleus of those companies now and that makes it much easier for those in the industry to come here (experienced labor market, relationships with others in the business, etc.).

L.A's problems led to the rapid growth of first Seattle, then Portland and certainly Las Vegas. Houston's problems are certainly fueling Austin. I think many saw Charlotte as a nicer, more livable Atlanta.

[NWOKCGuy]

I grew up in the Bay Area and moved to Austin for school and then OKC with work. I have two friends from the SFO that are moving here next year - both already bought houses and are renting them out until they move next year. OKC is definitely starting to have an appeal at the national level.

[bradh]

Houston's problems (over-population, expense, traffic, etc.) are perhaps the best possible opportunity for OKC to achieve rapid growth.

We aren't likely to get a big company or a bunch of mid-sized ones to move here from L.A. or Seattle or New York. But Houston is a mess in many ways and OKC offers a great alternative.

I know we don't want to become too dependent on oil & gas but we have a great nucleus of those companies now and that makes it much easier for those in the industry to come here (experienced labor market, relationships with others in the business, etc.).

L.A's problems led to the rapid growth of first Seattle, then Portland and certainly Las Vegas. Houston's problems are certainly fueling Austin. I think many saw Charlotte as a nicer, more livable Atlanta.

Pete, I wish I was as optimistic as you, but I'm telling you its just not stopping down there. The Energy Corridor along I-10 West from the Beltway out to Katy looks like freaking Dubai with tower cranes. Chevron is building a new tower downtown. Exxon is building their HQ up in The Woodlands. It's insane.

[Pete]

L.A. is still booming as well, even with lots of people moving elsewhere.

I just meant that we might get some spin-off from Houston, the way Portland and Vegas did from L.A.

[Spartan]

Is there a consensus that Houston is higher up on the totem pole than Dallas?

[bradh]

Ah, gotcha. Yes, that's definitely possible and highly likely.