Streetcar

[soonerguru]

Nichols is something of an enigma.

On the one hand, we love what he has done for our city with Devon as well as the company's contributions along the river and otherwise, and continues to do. We like, if not adore, all of that he has done and will likely do.

On the other, most of us (at least, I'd suppose) were less than impressed with his anonymous and relentless campaigning in the city council elections in 2011 (masked under the name of the Committee for Oklahoma City Momentum).

In the earlier days, his public appearance appeared to be humble, just a nice guy, maybe even "one of the people." But closer to today, he seems to have embraced more of a swagger which connotes, "I am something special ... listen to me and, if you find it convenient, do as I suggest." Always with politeness but an unmistakeable directive.

Now, to be sure, there is nothing new about power brokers being active in Oklahoma City's history. Those guys date from immediately after the days of the Land Run (e.g., Henry Overholser, C.J. Jones) and have continued beyond that time.

The thing is, whether it be because of the internet or whatever, the public has more of an input into municipal decisions which in earlier times were perhaps decided by a cloistered if not secretive few. Public input in contemporary times may be an input that today's power brokers aren't particularly friendly to, or, worse, even aware of or care about ... even less, about such contemporary input, that they have developed the acumen in dealing with and responding to.

In other words, does a historical power broker (e.g., the Chamber, Nichols, etc.) even have a sense that the political world is different than it was 50 years ago? My sense is that they do not perceive that times have changed. Whether they are right or wrong in that regard is the question.

My 2 cents.

Great points. I think they're very aware of it but it pisses them off to the extreme. Democracy is a messy enterprise. "Power brokers," as you anoint them, like control, and a forum for public input threatens this control to say the least. They still have outsize influence, but they cannot control the messaging as much as they would like. I'm amazed the Internet hasn't been shut down yet.

As for Nichols, he did cultivate a 'humble' persona. I recall hearing all of these OKC insiders braying about the beat up car he allegedly drove and the coach air tickets he allegedly purchased. He may have been that guy. I have no idea. And I really don't care if he drives a luxury car and flies first class; that's his prerogative. But a billionaire will never be "one of the people."

[Doug Loudenback]

As for Nichols, he did cultivate a 'humble' persona. I recall hearing all of these OKC insiders braying about the beat up car he allegedly drove and the coach air tickets he allegedly purchased. He may have been that guy. I have no idea. And I really don't care if he drives a luxury car and flies first class; that's his prerogative. But a billionaire will never be "one of the people."

I guess that I'm still a hopeless romantic, in a sense. I'd presuppose that those with great wealth would have all of the trappings of their wealth, and I see nothing wrong with that, envy aside. But, I do think that it is possible that a billionaire and a common citizen have the capability of sharing a common vision for the city. This part may be easier for the common man than the billionaire, I would suppose. But, that said, it is still possible for the very wealthy and the rest of us to have a common vision for the city.

If any millionaire/billionaire who lives in Oklahoma City has that capacity, I'm hoping that it is Larry Nichols because I think that he has the greatest potential to "be good" and "do good." I do think it possible that such a person "can be one of the people." It might not be easy to do, but I think that it's possible.

[blangtang]

Mr Doug L-

please keep posting- we love it

[Doug Loudenback]

Thanks, blangtang. I'll keep posting.

[soonerguru]

I guess that I'm still a hopeless romantic, in a sense. I'd presuppose that those with great wealth would have all of the trappings of their wealth, and I see nothing wrong with that, envy aside. But, I do think that it is possible that a billionaire and a common citizen have the capability of sharing a common vision for the city. This part may be easier for the common man than the billionaire, I would suppose. But, that said, it is still possible for the very wealthy and the rest of us to have a common vision for the city.

If any millionaire/billionaire who lives in Oklahoma City has that capacity, I'm hoping that it is Larry Nichols because I think that he has the greatest potential to "be good" and "do good." I do think it possible that such a person "can be one of the people." It might not be easy to do, but I think that it's possible.

I cannot say if you're a romantic. I consider myself an idealist, and I've often wondered what it would be like to have more money to spend than I could in a lifetime. And while I share your optimism that very wealthy people can listen to and even understand what "everyman" folk think, they simply cannot relate. Neither you nor I can make decisions that affect the lives and livelihoods of thousands -- or even tens of thousands -- of people. In fact, short of this forum, our small circles of friends, the neighborhood coffee shop, and our vote at the polls, our ability to affect change is limited. We are not surrounded by admirers hanging on our every word. We do not have the politicians (whom we personally bankroll) eating out of our palms.

Similarly, Mr. Nichols doesn't ever have to worry about paying a light bill, having a medical complication bankrupt him, finding the means to send his kids to college, etc. And he would never be able to understand what it's like to not have the influence he does. He cannot relate. He can pay lip service, and even be a benevolent person, but he can never relate to our experience, nor us to his. It is what it is.

To clarify, I said a billionaire could never be "one of the people." This does not mean that a billionaire and an average Joe cannot embrace a similar vision for our city.

[OKCisOK4me]

Soonerguru,

I vote for sending you up against Larry Nichols. Do ya mind if we work on a presentation? I'll work the slideshow and you give him all of our 'two cents'. Should equal out to $500 by the time it's all said and done...

[soonerguru]

Soonerguru,

I vote for sending you up against Larry Nichols. Do ya mind if we work on a presentation? I'll work the slideshow and you give him all of our 'two cents'. Should equal out to $500 by the time it's all said and done...

LOL. I have self confidence but I think I'm more effective just where I am.

[Just the facts]

Here is the deal. Larry Nichols has been entrusted by public officials to paticipate on many civic boards. In this capacity he is supposed to do what is in the best interest of the people of Oklahoma City, but in the case of the streecar he has instead opted to look out for the shareholder of Devon Energy by pushing an experimanetal (if not financially unreasonable) natural gas powered streetcar. He is our own version of 1940's GM, Firestone, and National City Lines, manipulating public mass transit - not to make it better, but to make his company more profitable. He has sold out the people of Main St OKC for his shareholders on Wall Street on this issue. He should be ashamed.

[OKCTalker]

Here is the deal. Larry Nichols has been entrusted by public officials to paticipate on many civic boards. In this capacity he is supposed to do what is in the best interest of the people of Oklahoma City, but in the case of the streecar he has instead opted to look out for the shareholder of Devon Energy by pushing an experimanetal (if not financially unreasonable) natural gas powered streetcar. He is our own version of 1940's GM, Firestone, and National City Lines, manipulating public mass transit - not to make it better, but to make his company more profitable. He has sold out the people of Main St OKC for his shareholders on Wall Street on this issue. He should be ashamed.

So Larry Nichols does something you disagree with and he's "sold out the people of...OKC for his shareholders on Wall Street?" Seriously?

[OKCTalker]

To clarify, I said a billionaire could never be "one of the people." This does not mean that a billionaire and an average Joe cannot embrace a similar vision for our city.

The difference as it relates to our city and the ability to get things done, is that an accomplished and visionary leader is more likely to succeed than the average Joe. Accomplished and visionary people tend to accumulate wealth along the way. Goes with the saying, "The harder I work the luckier I get."

[catch22]

Larry Nichols is offering his opinion on the streetcar just as every single one of us have. I encourage him to share his opinion. His opinion and my opinion do not align on this issue. That is okay. I have faith in the process that the experts, the citizen committee, and the city council will make the correct decisions. My opinion probably won't be reflected in all of the decisions those bodies make and neither will Larry Nichols'. The bodies will make decisions over broader input and not narrow input of "what does catch22 want?" Or "what does Larry Nichols want?"

We are entering the phase of development where everyone is providing last minute input. I still have faith that this will all work out.

[Rover]

Here is the deal. Larry Nichols has been entrusted by public officials to paticipate on many civic boards. In this capacity he is supposed to do what is in the best interest of the people of Oklahoma City, but in the case of the streecar he has instead opted to look out for the shareholder of Devon Energy by pushing an experimanetal (if not financially unreasonable) natural gas powered streetcar. He is our own version of 1940's GM, Firestone, and National City Lines, manipulating public mass transit - not to make it better, but to make his company more profitable. He has sold out the people of Main St OKC for his shareholders on Wall Street on this issue. He should be ashamed.

Wow. That streetcar must use a LOT of gas.

I hear reasonable debate about LN's influence, but let's not be paranoid and hysterical.. It doesn't help the cause.

[AP]

Larry Nichols is offering his opinion on the streetcar just as every single one of us have. I encourage him to share his opinion. His opinion and my opinion do not align on this issue. That is okay. I have faith in the process that the experts, the citizen committee, and the city council will make the correct decisions. My opinion probably won't be reflected in all of the decisions those bodies make and neither will Larry Nichols'. The bodies will make decisions over broader input and not narrow input of "what does catch22 want?" Or "what does Larry Nichols want?"

We are entering the phase of development where everyone is providing last minute input. I still have faith that this will all work out.

I think it's far more likely that what they decide will be far more closely aligned with Larry Nichols' opinion than yours. Powerful men get what they want.

[catch22]

I think it's far more likely that what they decide will be far more closely aligned with Larry Nichols' opinion than yours. Powerful men get what they want.

I disagree.

[Just the facts]

Wow. That streetcar must use a LOT of gas.

I hear reasonable debate about LN's influence, but let's not be paranoid and hysterical.. It doesn't help the cause.

What LN is wanting to do is use OKC taxpayer money to fund his research and developement and proof of concept. If he wants a natural gas powered streetcar that he can market to the rest of the world he should go do that on his own dime and submit a bid to the city when RFPs are sent out.

[CaptDave]

So Larry Nichols does something you disagree with and he's "sold out the people of...OKC for his shareholders on Wall Street?" Seriously?

I think some of the frustration may stem from the fact that Mr Nichols and the chamber are getting their convention center primarily because more popular projects like the streetcar carried the MAPS3 vote. (Not griping about logrolling or the process, that is another debate.) Many people think the selected location for the CC is a poor choice but have conceded it is not going to change because it is where Mr Nichols wants it. I think many people would like them to play with their shiny new toy and leave the streetcar alone. Of course he can offer his opinion on the streetcar like any of us, but do you think if we had hundreds of people show up to a MAPS CC meeting asking for the location to be changed (based on solid reasons and not merely opinion) anyone would listen?

Let the experts hired by the city and people who have invested thousands of hours into making the streetcar successful carry far more influence than one person who regards the streetcar basically as an amusement park ride. I hope catch22 and UP are correct in placing their faith in the process.

[CaptDave]

What LN is wanting to do is use OKC taxpayer money to fund his research and developement and proof of concept. If he wants a natural gas powered streetcar that he can market to the rest of the world he should go do that on his own dime and submit a bid to the city when RFPs are sent out.

I have only heard NG power for the streetcar mentioned in passing. Usually I hear more about hybrid systems with battery or capacitor energy storage systems that permit off wire operation for part of the route. Some sort of capacitive system may be necessary to get under the BNSF viaduct but I am not 100% sure on that. Putting an internal combustion engine in the streetcar vehicles would be a huge mistake - it would negate some of the primary advantages of electric streetcars over buses. The low noise and lack of any emissions are two of the attributes that make streetcars popular and effective.

I think natural gas can be an important component of mass transit however. Replace every diesel burning bus with modern LNG powered models. This is proven technology that has several local benefits. As the streetcar system expands, build a gas turbine power plant to provide electrical power to the system. Sell the excess power to a coop, OG&E, or to the city. This would have broad appeal - it would use one of Oklahoma's natural resources effectively, it would acknowledge the importance of the energy companies based here, and it would appeal to even hard core environmentalists who often shift the debate to the effects of electricity generated by burning coal. Gas turbine power plants offer several advantages and we should maximize the use of our homegrown industry and resources.

[Just the facts]

Well, if LN is thinking of doing something like the streetcars in Bordeaux, FR that use an imbedded 3rd rail to avoid using over headline lines then that cost 300% to 600% more per mile. If he is wanting to go trackless we call that a bus and without the permanence of rail infrastructure there is no TOD - so if that is what he has in mind then he would be correct in assuming that the streetcar won't produce any economic benefit.

No track + no overhead wire = bus

Is this what LN has in mind?

[hoya]

Say what you want about Larry Nichols. He is a smart man. Pushing for a natural gas streetcar is too obviously self-serving. He's not going to do that. Now, powerful people didn't get that way by sitting meekly in the corner and not pushing for their ideas. LN clearly has a vision for this city and he's pushing it hard. Nothing wrong with that. I have a vision for this city and I'll push for it too. Of course I'm not a billionaire (hell, at the end of the month I'm not even a hundredaire). But he pushed for Project 180 and it clearly made the city look a lot nicer. I think he envisions the streetcar in his mind and says "what a bunch of ugly wires for a toy". His opinion has its place, but I haven't seen any evidence of abuse of his position yet.

[CaptDave]

My understanding is Mr Nichols opposes overhead catenary mainly for aesthetic reasons. Third rail has not been discussed at any of the subcommittee meetings I have been able to attend. I only hear rubber tire trolley from obviously uninformed people.

Earlier you hit on one of the main advantages of overhear wire systems - it gives an instantly recognizable route marker. Even though the modern catenary is relatively unobtrusive, if one is looking for the streetcar, it is easily located from a couple blocks away.

[Just the facts]

Maybe it would help us all if LN just said what kind of streetcar setup he prefers. 18 months ago I said the only thing the street subcommittee will get to do is pick the color. It looks like that is how it is turning out.

[CaptDave]

Say what you want about Larry Nichols. He is a smart man. Pushing for a natural gas streetcar is too obviously self-serving. He's not going to do that. Now, powerful people didn't get that way by sitting meekly in the corner and not pushing for their ideas. LN clearly has a vision for this city and he's pushing it hard. Nothing wrong with that. I have a vision for this city and I'll push for it too. Of course I'm not a billionaire (hell, at the end of the month I'm not even a hundredaire). But he pushed for Project 180 and it clearly made the city look a lot nicer. I think he envisions the streetcar in his mind and says "what a bunch of ugly wires for a toy". His opinion has its place, but I haven't seen any evidence of abuse of his position yet.

The bolded sentence is why I responded so strongly to his statements. I think he does regard the MAPS Streetcar as an amusement park ride and not much more. I see it much differently and the streetcar will not be successful if it is designed and operated like "a toy".

[OKCTalker]

Maybe it would help us all if LN just said what kind of streetcar setup he prefers. 18 months ago I said the only thing the street subcommittee will get to do is pick the color. It looks like that is how it is turning out.

Members of boards, commissions, trusts, councils, authorities, etc. typically don't say what they want because that's not their job. They merely get to vote up or down on what is proposed by applicants. And that's as it should be. They may express opinions about certain elements of an application ("I like this because ___" or "I don't like that because___"), but they can't - and shouldn't - paint themselves into a corner with an official preference ("Bring me something without overhead wires and you've got my vote.").

[CuatrodeMayo]

The likely scenario in my mind is this:

When a "wireless" option is compared to a traditional, overhead-wired streetcar on a cost basis, the only way to keep the total project in budget will be to lop off a mile or two of track. Unless the overhead wire critics are willing to front the difference, that will probably end the wireless discussion.

[OKCTalker]

And I don't think anyone's feelings about overhead wires should be influenced by this: Car Catches on Trolley Wires and Flips Over (HD) - YouTube