NFL in OKC

[bchris02]

It was made known to me that New Orleans only has one Fortune 500 company (Entergy @ #261 (thank you Green Country)). I did a search via Wikipedia and both cities are about even. As of 7 months ago (the last update), OKC has 2 500s, 1 1000, 35 headquartered and 28 with significant presence for a grand total of 66 and I'm sure there are other smaller companies that didn't make the list. For New Orleans, the one top 500 and 62 other companies either headquartered or with significant presence for a total of 63 +/- the local businesses that the updater didn't know about (updated 2 months ago).

True. The only thing New Orleans really has above OKC is the cultural heritage and tourist draw. In terms of economics, I would say OKC is about even with if not ahead of the Big Easy. Wouldn't it be the raw economics that would determine if teams can be supported, or does tourism/national image play a part?

[Hawk405359]

Image is everything when it comes to actually getting a team. And I again I think the image on OKC just isn't settled yet, and won't be until the Thunder are still viable despite not being a title contender.

As far as economics is concerned, I still think OKC in general has all of it's largest eggs in a very shaky basket, and we shouldn't be predicting sustained long-term growth on just the energy market, which is highly competitive and has had the bottom fall form it in the past. But even then, you can't prop up New Orleans as an example because of how much turmoil their NBA franchise has been in. The league had to step in to keep the team viable there. The league is just reaching where there's not a great market right now, and when it comes time to move franchises, New Orleans is probably going to be in a short list of possible franchises to get cheap.

[OKCisOK4me]

Funny the way the world works these days. Im certain national image was phenomenal for Buffalo New York when the Bills were born. Or that the LA Clippers franchise was actually in San Diego first. That might be a team/city where the tourism aspect came into play. I just don't think tourism, nowadays, has nearly enough to do with it as national image (which should easily be corrected with the world being as interconnected as it is).

[Hawk405359]

I think if a city has an actual tourism market then that means it has it's own unique identity that is recognized outside of the immediate area. It means that it has an actual charm that people want to go to and see. That doesn't necessarily translate to a sports franchise on it's own, since the Pelicans aren't in a good place and we dont' have pro sports in, say, Hawaii, but I don't think you can discount what tourism actually means in terms of national image.

[Just the facts]

Funny the way the world works these days. Im certain national image was phenomenal for Buffalo New York when the Bills were born. Or that the LA Clippers franchise was actually in San Diego first. That might be a team/city where the tourism aspect came into play. I just don't think tourism, nowadays, has nearly enough to do with it as national image (which should easily be corrected with the world being as interconnected as it is).

You know what is weird - the LA Clippers actually started out in Buffalo. They moved to San Diego after the '77-'78 season.

[traxx]

As a Dallas Cowboys fan, JJ is making it easier day-by-day to jump allegiances. That being said, I still don't see OKC as a viable NFL market anytime soon. Let's take care of the Thunder before we start biting off more than we can chew.

[jedicurt]

Do we really want to be an NFL city? the city of St. Louis just refused to put up $700 Million in public money for upgrades to Edward Jones Dome, and now the Rams are free to leave the arena and the city at the end of the 2014 season. The NFL is a cut throat league.

[Just the facts]

I wonder what happens when no city wants an NFL team. It isn't like a NBA or NHL team that can play in a multi-use facility that can be switched out in 90 minutes. These are super expensive stadiums that are single-use for a large part of the year.

[SoonerDave]

I wonder what happens when no city wants an NFL team. It isn't like a NBA or NHL team that can play in a multi-use facility that can be switched out in 90 minutes. These are super expensive stadiums that are single-use for a large part of the year.

Interesting notion.

I don't think that the likelihood of no city wanting a franchise is very high; however, it may well occur that at some point (who knows when or if this will ever occur) no city can or will be willing to offer an "ante-up" in the "arms race" of nicer, more "wow-factor" stadiums. It may be that cities back down to simpler, less expensive, thus less risky, such facilities. It takes a Jerry Jones to build JerryWorld, so its a bit of a unique animal, but there may come a time in the not-so-distant future where neither the risk nor the capital for the more monstrous stadiums will be available.

[betts]

Do we really want to be an NFL city? the city of St. Louis just refused to put up $700 Million in public money for upgrades to Edward Jones Dome, and now the Rams are free to leave the arena and the city at the end of the 2014 season. The NFL is a cut throat league.

I think "can" and "should" are two very different issues here. Right now I'm quite happy with the NBA and feel that while we can or could support a team, I'm not sure we should at this point in time.

[Snowman]

Do we really want to be an NFL city? the city of St. Louis just refused to put up $700 Million in public money for upgrades to Edward Jones Dome, and now the Rams are free to leave the arena and the city at the end of the 2014 season. The NFL is a cut throat league.

When the most recent owner bought the team it seemed like the odds were fair that his intentions were to move it elsewhere, looks like he may just be following the script for how to move the easiest team possible.

[OKCisOK4me]

You know what is weird - the LA Clippers actually started out in Buffalo. They moved to San Diego after the '77-'78 season.

That is weird...I randomly selected an NBA team from the same city I was speaking of the NFL team, lol...

[Just the facts]

Interesting notion.

I don't think that the likelihood of no city wanting a franchise is very high; however, it may well occur that at some point (who knows when or if this will ever occur) no city can or will be willing to offer an "ante-up" in the "arms race" of nicer, more "wow-factor" stadiums. It may be that cities back down to simpler, less expensive, thus less risky, such facilities. It takes a Jerry Jones to build JerryWorld, so its a bit of a unique animal, but there may come a time in the not-so-distant future where neither the risk nor the capital for the more monstrous stadiums will be available.

Thanks SoonerDave - that is more what I was thinking. The new stadium in Atlanta is supposed to cost over a billion dollars and the Falcon's owner wants the city to help pay for it. I have no idea why Atlanta civic leaders are even entertaining the thought of that. Like I said earlier, even here in Jax we are spending $60 million on stadium enhancements when we are making cuts everywhere else. It has just stopped making sense to me.

[OKCisOK4me]

So are we saying that we think a stadium smaller than that of OU Gaylord Memorial Stadium would be better suited for the future of NFL and a new model in OKC?

[Snowman]

So are we saying that we think a stadium smaller than that of OU Gaylord Memorial Stadium would be better suited for the future of NFL and a new model in OKC?

Having stadiums larger than OU's in a smaller market would be a new model for the NFL. There are only two NFL stadiums with a larger seating capacity than OU's stadium, one of those two with more seats is below the highest recorded attendance at an OU game, the rest have between 10,000 and 20,000 less seats than it. The money at the stadiums is not made in the seats far away from the field; it is made through TV, luxury boxes, higher end sections near the field and the services that can be sold to them. Avoiding TV blackout is a bigger issue than getting a bigger stadium for smaller markets.

[Just the facts]

The perfect NFL stadium would be 25,000 seats. This is a lesson MLB is just learning. The NFL is a bit slower on the learning curve (probably from all the head injuries )

[jedicurt]

The perfect NFL stadium would be 25,000 seats. This is a lesson MLB is just learning. The NFL is a bit slower on the learning curve (probably from all the head injuries )

i think you are a little low on your number, but the idea is still correct. the NFL is going to learn that a smaller stadium with more amenities that can't be offered at home is the way to go.

[SoonerDave]

The perfect NFL stadium would be 25,000 seats. This is a lesson MLB is just learning. The NFL is a bit slower on the learning curve (probably from all the head injuries )

Hmmmm...I think that number is low - the new number may be closer to the range of 50-60K seats. In fact, Heinz Field up in Pitt may be a very rough forerunner of what we're talking about - a rough Google of its capacity indicates it's about 65K. Jerryworld can hold up of 100K, but I think JJ built that place knowing up front he wanted it as sort of a pseudo-multipurpose venue, which he's been very aggressive about realizing.

MLB's problem isn't from stadiums that are too large. I think its from having just too many cotton picking games. I say that with the proviso that I'm not a big baseball fan, but thinking how you even begin to populate a 40-50-60K stadium for 81 home dates boggles the mind. I know they'll never do it, but I think MLB would suit themselves well if they considered shortening their season just a bit. The NFL is in serious danger of expanding their season into the same oversaturation range - 18 games is too many in my opinion....sorry, getting off topic

[Just the facts]

Until attendance stops dropping (which peaked in 2007) I am going to stick with the 25,000 number.

After peaking in 2007, NFL attendance steadily has declined | ProFootballTalk

Despite unprecedented growth of TV audiences, attendance at NFL games reached an all-time high in 2007. It has consistently dropped ever since.

[Rover]

Until attendance stops dropping (which peaked in 2007) I am going to stick with the 25,000 number.

After peaking in 2007, NFL attendance steadily has declined | ProFootballTalk

Actually, it has rebounded. And the avg. is about 65,000.... A far cry from the wishful 25,000. Lol. Imagine that attendance went down during the worst recession in modern history. That is so hard to understand why that would happen. Wow.

[Just the facts]

2012 Attendance

Dallas Cowboys: 708,249 (tops in the NFL)
Stadium Cost: $1.3 billion

Oklahoma Redhawks: 399,965 (9 highest in the PCL)
Stadium Cost: $32 million

If the NFL has a positive 'intangible' factor, it isn't in their stadium cost per fan. For the most part, people watching on TV don't care what the 'stadium experience' is, which probably explains why teams want giant televisions AT the game.

[bluedogok]

Like I posted in the MAPS for Suburbia thread, it is a different game business wise now, what worked in the 60's to get a team doesn't work now. If it weren't for the NFL and NBA Commissioners and public sentiment New Orleans wouldn't have either team, the Hornets would be in OKC and the Saints would be in San Antonio.

[Laramie]

MAPS IV in 2017 is going to determine if Oklahoma City is "ready" for a future in the NFL or immediate pursuit of a Major League Soccer franchise. There will be some type of facility on MAPS IV.

Do with begin with a forty to fifty thousand seat facility capable of being expanded to 65,000 - 70,000-seats? You're talking about a start up price of about $400 millions without all the bells and whistles.

Whether or not we attempt to bring the NFL to OKC in 2020; we would like to have some type of facility with expansion possibilities. OU would allow use of Gaylord Family Memorial Stadium as a temporary facility; however, it would not be in their best interest to house a team beyond 3 years.

[jedicurt]

MAPS IV in 2017 is going to determine if Oklahoma City is "ready" for a future in the NFL or immediate pursuit of a Major League Soccer franchise. There will be some type of facility on MAPS IV.

Do with begin with a forty to fifty thousand seat facility capable of being expanded to 65,000 - 70,000-seats? You're talking about a start up price of about $400 millions without all the bells and whistles.

Whether or not we attempt to bring the NFL to OKC in 2020; we would like to have some type of facility with expansion possibilities. OU would allow use of Gaylord Family Memorial Stadium as a temporary facility; however, it would not be in their best interest to house a team beyond 3 years.

I've said it many times on this thread. i am a huge NFL fan, and i hope that there is NOT a stadium in Maps IV. the NFL is a pipe dream. those teams do not sell often, and expansion is not likely soon, and there are several markets who would get one before us (San Antonio, or St Louis, since they are going to lose the Rams in 2 years)

[Laramie]

I've said it many times on this thread. i am a huge NFL fan, and i hope that there is NOT a stadium in Maps IV. the NFL is a pipe dream. those teams do not sell often, and expansion is not likely soon, and there are several markets who would get one before us (San Antonio, or St Louis, since they are going to lose the Rams in 2 years)

NFL is a pipedream? I heard this about the NHL and NBA in the 1990s. Naysayers said that we would never get an NHL team and that an NBA franchise was an impossibility.

Well, the NBA is here and the NHL was what we were targeting. We grabbed a bigger fish to fry with the NBA than the NHL; yet, this was the city in 1997 that finished tied with Houston in the 1997 NHL expansion as we took a back seat to Nashville, Atlanta, St. Paul and Columbus.

Don't get me wrong; I respect your opinion--you might be right.

If we hadn't went right ahead and built the Indoor Sports Arena (ex Ford/Chesapeake Energy Arena), you are correct, the NBA would not be here.

We do need some type of stadium; let's get one in place, just in case the opportunity affords itself...

Had we left the Indoor Sports Arena off the original MAPS project in 1993; there would definitely be no NBA or the remote possibility of getting one.

San Antonio? The Alamo Dome will be outdated by the time an NFL team becomes available.

St. Louis? If they lose the Rams; I doubt if they will get an NFL team anytime soon. When Houston let the Oilers leave for Nashville, it took a new stadium and an expansion franchise to get back into Houston.