Streetcar

[Larry OKC]

Sid: It was related to what someone said Shadid proposed with the Streetcar, so it was related, but I understand wanting to keep "ontrack" and not "derailing" the thread...LOL

[betts]

When a site is picked for anything, someone is bound to be disappointed. I was not happy with the convention center site picked. But, clearly, other people think it's great and the best option. The problem with a route, as opposed to a single piece of ground, is that every single facet can be criticized. Some people might not like the length, one part of the route or another, presence or absence of couplets, etc. The problem is that almost everyone ends up feeling a little bit disappointed. I understand that, as we've been arguing (politely discussing) routes for over 3 years and when I saw the proposed routes, I felt the same way a lot of you did. None were exactly what I would have picked if I were the only person involved. But, I'm not. I'm also quite experienced in the art of compromise 3.5 years after beginning. So, I'm looking at routes and saying to myself: Look how happy people at the Hill and Gary Brooks, as well as hotel owners and people who park at Bass Pro before an event will be with this part of the route. Look how happy people who want the streetcar to go by the Art Museum and the Civic Center, to be closer to Film Row and the school will be with this part. Look at how happy people who have businesses on Automobile Alley or who like visiting Automobile Alley will be with this part. When I look at each route or part of the route, I can see reasons that a different group of people will be satisfied. We won't be able to satisfy many with the whole route. But I think, it you look at any of these routes and don't assume people have to be dropped off directly at a doorstep, they will all suddenly look a lot more acceptable. They cover a lot of ground and will serve a lot of different types of people, businesses and events. Imagine walking a block or two in any direction from the route and it suddenly grows even more serviceable.

So, do not expect to love any route we pick in its entirety, but try to remember that someone else may be very pleased with the part you dislike the most. Also, remember that most of us regard the streetcar as a catalyst for a much larger system of transit that we hope will be stimulated by this first route. Just like downtown is evolving, our transit system will evolve as well. Personally, I cannot wait to see the first shovel of dirt lifted and to step onto our very own modern streetcar to take my first ride. No matter the route, I know it's going to be an exhilarating experience.

[Rover]

All I have been reading here is how much and how quickly the areas abutting any rail line will grow. So who cares where it is, right? The rail leads, not follows, right? If it is within a block or two of current demand, they will walk over and take it. Just make it easy to find, easy to figure out where it is going, and make it reliable as to schedule and up time.

[Doug Loudenback]

Post edited to delete original content as useless debate with a post by soonerguru. That is all.

[soonerguru]

Post edited to delete original content as useless debate with a post by soonerguru. That is all.

Oh, do tell. If you think it worthy of dragging me into it, perhaps you could provide the courtesy of explaining your comment. If it's not worth discussing, why call me out by name? Surely we can civilly discuss this pain point without devolving into a "useless debate."

Whatever your thought is, it clearly is important to you or you wouldn't have taken a swipe at me here while providing no explanation. This post doesn't meet your usual high standard of discussion.

[Doug Loudenback]

Sorry. I've forgotten what I originally said. I'd have deleted the message altogether were that possible to do. Apology is given for my slipping standards.

[soonerguru]

Sorry. I've forgotten what I originally said. I'd have deleted the message altogether were that possible to do. Apology is given for my slipping standards.

Hmmm. Somehow I'm doubting you've "forgotten" this point you believe would have precipitated such a "useless debate." But you strike me as a sincere person, so I will assume your apologia is sincere as well.

[Doug Loudenback]

Quite frankly, I did not peruse the prior posts to attempt to reconfigure what I might have said before posting my immediately preceding message. Seeing your reply, I thought that there was no point in doing so since I'd all-but-deleted my message to you, and, after your message, I offered you an apology. Right now, I really didn't want to bother with doing a such a reconstruction. What it boils down to is that what I said in my attempted-to-be-deleted post just doesn't matter. I'm OK with leaving it at that, if that's all the same to you. So the "forgotten" issue relates to the fact that that I didn't back-scroll to see the prior context, and I have no interest in doing so now. Whatever I said was probably quite unimportant, and I'm content to leave it at that. OK? Either way, it's all water under the bridge and I really don't want to spend any more time with it. OK?

Even now, I've spent more time with this than I've wanted to do. I'll watch my words in the future to avoid repetition of analogous kinds of things. One's tongue, or keyboard entry, is best done with better thought than the one I attempted to deleted.

It would really be great if the option was available in this forum to simply delete a recently sent post. Such an option would have eliminated all of this exchange.

[okcboy]

Do any of the route options engage the proposed transit hub?

[betts]

There are planned stops on Sheridan and/or Reno adjacent to the hub in phase 1 with a phase 2 addition that goes directly in front of the hub. It would all be much easier if EK Gaylord weren't such a mess and there wasn't a Myriad superblock.

[okcboy]

Is phase 2 funded within the MAPS 3 budget and what does that timeline look like?

[betts]

Yes, phase II will be fully funded with MAPS 3 funds. Phase I is supposed to be completed by 2017 and Phase II by 2021, I believe. That's from memory - I don't have the timeline in front of me.

[okcboy]

I heard we just recently got turned down for another tiger grant application. Is this true?

[Urban Pioneer]

Not sure. We apply for them all the time. Due to the lack of a 6-year Federal Transportation Bill, it extremely, extremely tough to win these with the limited funds available.

[okcboy]

So can you explain to me why we as a city are suing to take this private property by ED when the facility is not needed for the streetcar? We also don't currently have funding and doesn't look promising to get funding for the other modes of passenger rail. Amtrak is also on the bubble and they are talking about doing away with the tiger grants all together.

[Urban Pioneer]

Sure. I'd be glad to.

1st, it should have never been sold to a private entity in the first place.

2nd, it is very possible that it might be needed for streetcar services. We don't know for sure yet.

3rd, AMTRAK will continue going to the station for the foreseeable future and that is where streetcar will interface with it. I suspect the facility will be modified with some sort of pedestrian corridor or other architectural feature to connect with stops proposed on Reno/Sheridan if it doesn't go directly in front on EK Gaylord. That is still a conversation that is ongoing.

Efforts are underway to even extend the Heartland Flyer to Newton Kansas. It is probably a line that will become even more relevant to our locality in accessing Chicago and California in the future. The station is bound to become busier and require more services such as taxis, rental cars, or other infrastructure the Brewer's may not provide.

4th, efforts to develop a regional authority are well underway and presumably, developing such a system isn't contingent on Federal Funds. They would help sure, but I suspect development is is already presumed to be locally funded.


Santa Fe Station is THE critical linkage to create a meaningful regional transit system. Council Members set aside money to obtain this facility for immediate use and as a conservatory for when it is needed in a more fuller form. Therefore, we are moving ahead.

[okcboy]

Ok. I guess private property rights are based on what ifs, maybes, and wishes these days. I hope it works out. If it weren't for that sale in the first place we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now.

[Urban Pioneer]

The Brewers made out quite well with that property. The sale of it was certainly an oversight. I don't speak for the city, but as a volunteer, this is an important conservation effort to make sure that we preserve the ability for future mass transportation for our citizens.

The Brewer's have done well with that facility during a time when there was no leadership on such matters. My sympathy is limited.

I do understand your argument though and appreciate it.

It's just that there aren't many places you can effectively put a major train station.

[okcboy]

There was really no reason for leadership. Obviously you must be young and were not around at the time. I admire the passion for your agenda. I'm just trying to be rational and understand the politics at play. This process is troublesome. I hope you will be ok if this bubble happens to burst.

[Urban Pioneer]

Which bubble? lol

I'm not sure what the "politics" are around this. Sam Bowman and Pete White led the way for adding monies to our streetcar program to buy and preserve the facility.

If there are politics, they are probably "in perception." I don't think that locking out those passengers from the station did them many favors long term. It might have helped them in their lease negotiations with the State for AMTRAK. But I'm pretty sure that many people (particularly council members) may not regard the Brewer's as being the most devout people in assisting with rail service.

Just say'in. The optics on the lock out and their exorbitant purchase price probably didn't help them.

[okcboy]

Throwing fastballs. You must be nervous. Always 2 sides to every story. The Brewers want to sell and will be happy with whatever the price is as long as your dream comes to pass. I hope you and the transit advocates nothing but the best.

[Urban Pioneer]

Lol. Nope. I wouldn't comment on something I was nervous about.

And as far as I am aware, this is nothing to be nervous about. Here's hoping that the process is fair an equitable for and to everyone.

[okcboy]

Absolutely

[Larry OKC]

All I have been reading here is how much and how quickly the areas abutting any rail line will grow. So who cares where it is, right? The rail leads, not follows, right? If it is within a block or two of current demand, they will walk over and take it. Just make it easy to find, easy to figure out where it is going, and make it reliable as to schedule and up time.

That has been the rhetoric and I took it at face value as being the case. It seems logical. However, some recent items in the Oklahoman have indicated that in other places where modern streetcars were built, the development happened only after heavy incentives from the city (on top of the streetcar incentive itself). So now I don't know what to believe on the ROI issue.

Right now it looks a lot like the Chamber's contention that convention business would somehow explode 300% if we build a new convention center and given the after-the-vote revelation from the Chamber that only 1/3 of convention business is from out of area, that would require a 900% increase (local events will remain relatively unchanged). Just ain't going to happen. Or that the only way the COnvention Center is going to be successful, is if a public subsidized C.C. hotel is built at the same time.

[betts]

Previous MAPS projects were not planned or designed around economic development. They were projects designed to improve city amenities and to improve quality of life for residents. To justify the convention center, economic development was dragged in to the equation. But IMO, the streetcar, just like prior MAPS projects, is designed to improve quality of life for OKC residents. Through serendipity, our prior quality of life improvements generated economic development. I think the same thing is likely to happen with the streetcar - its location and the prior denudation of downtown OKC by urban renewal created many opportunities for adjacent and nearby development - but it shouldn't be considered the ultimate goal of the streetcar. We weren't voting for economic development with MAPS, we were voting to make our city a more enjoyable place in which to live.