"I Don't Want To Live Downtown"

[Anonymous.]

Plenty of people leave downtown. I know many of them. Ironically Deep Deuce and the other apartments are incredible "suburban development generators".

People move into the CBD, and get accustomed to generating the income and paying the $850 - $1,650 per month rent. After several years of doing this, many of them start to realize, 'Geez! I could own a freaking home for what I'm paying here! And it might actually be an investment I can get some money back on later!' And many of them come to this conclusion often with or without kids.

The suburban developer has efficiently generated a product that fits within this monthly rate and they are seduced to the suburbs because there is no reasonable quantity of "for sale" product that matches the rental rate people are paying downtown.

The dynamic that has changed is that the amenities downtown have become so seductive in their own right, I suspect people are willing to rent for longer periods of time to enjoy them.

But downtown does have a long term problem, a lack of people that are directly invested in it. While we have developers now that seem to care and be good partners, when apartment projects start to get flipped and deteriorate, we'll be wishing we had more homeowners scattered around to help keep them accountable.

I personally believe that we need a well constructed quality condo tower that provides housing financed at monthly payments equivalent to rental rates or we need to be chopping up Urban Renewal parcels and offering small"personal sized" lots for redevelopment by individuals and their architects.

It's almost like you took this from my brain. 100% agree.

[Urban Pioneer]

Thanks!

I mean the ammenities compared to when I first moved downtown are now incredible. I'm sitting at Peloton right now after walking just half a block because I wanted a light lunch. Unthinkable a few years ago.

But I can totally get someone moving because of the investment issue irregardless of kids.

It doesn't even have to be "new suburbia". Plently of inner-suburban redevelopment going on directly stimulated by downtown renter income/payment profiles.

The greed and rush to build high-cost housing first was a horrible overreach by our "development community."

[adaniel]

Plenty of people leave downtown. I know many of them. Ironically Deep Deuce and the other apartments are incredible "suburban development generators".

People move into the CBD, and get accustomed to generating the income and paying the $850 - $1,650 per month rent. After several years of doing this, many of them start to realize, 'Geez! I could own a freaking home for what I'm paying here! And it might actually be an investment I can get some money back on later!' And many of them come to this conclusion often with or without kids.

The suburban developer has efficiently generated a product that fits within this monthly rate and they are seduced to the suburbs because there is no reasonable quantity of "for sale" product that matches the rental rate people are paying downtown.

The dynamic that has changed is that the amenities downtown have become so seductive in their own right, I suspect people are willing to rent for longer periods of time to enjoy them.

But downtown does have a long term problem, a lack of people that are directly invested in it. While we have developers now that seem to care and be good partners, when apartment projects start to get flipped and deteriorate, we'll be wishing we had more homeowners scattered around to help keep them accountable.

I personally believe that we need a well constructed quality condo tower that provides housing financed at monthly payments equivalent to rental rates or we need to be chopping up Urban Renewal parcels and offering small"personal sized" lots for redevelopment by individuals and their architects. A great start might be that half block area they own behind the 911 center or similar half blocks here and there.

All good points.

You are exactly right about the lack of ownership in the CBD. I know a ton of people who would have loved to buy in downtown, but cannot spend more than $200/sq ft. Which is going to be pretty difficult for the handful of units you can buy down here.

At the same time (and this is a general complaint about this area), developers in the suburban areas here are the most uncreative bunches of dolts I have ever seen. If you want anything less than an okie chateau Mcmansion you are out of luck. I mean, I would be much more open to the suburbs if I could find a townhouse, patio home, or decent condo development, and one can actually find these things in other cities our size. As a single person, the thought of maintaining and paying for a huge empty house with a yard is ridiculous. But your choices here are the aforementioned Mcmansion or nothing. And I am not the only one. Demographics are changing. People are waiting longer to get married, and when they do they are not popping out kids like they use to. This is happening even in red-state Oklahoma. Recently there was an article in the JR that 9% of people in OKC would like to live in a condo or townhouse but these units compromise 1% of the housing here.

So until we see development starting changing with tastes, I think you will have people like me in limbo. And as it stands now, the best place for people like me is in downtown, even with inflated rents. If I go anywhere, it will likely be to one of the historical neighborhoods with smaller homes. And I know quite a few young people who are doing the same.

[Teo9969]

For that reason, I think we can expect to see the non-downtown (13th/Classen/River/235) Urban Core do really well over the next 15 years.

There's a lot of great homes already, many of them (well) under 2000 square feet. Land is still relatively cheap where it's undeveloped, and the high turnover rate in the less established neighborhoods provides a good investment opportunity for young individuals. Plus there are interesting districts peppered throughout this area that all show great signs of becoming urban opportunities themselves: Paseo, 23rd, Plaza.

I live off 46th and Classen and I literally couldn't ask for a better location. Unless traffic is just a bear, I can get anywhere in this metro area in 25 minutes or less: Norman/Edmond/Yukon/Choctaw. I can walk to Will Rogers Theater, Penn Square, several parks. I can drive to Classen Curve, Downtown, May Ave, the Plaza in under 10 minutes. Traffic flows really well in this part of the city, so I never deal with hitting the same stop-light 3 times like you can on NW expressway...even during rush hour.

I'd enjoy living downtown, but for what I pay to live here and still have a decent urban experience (At one point I scored like a 74 on Zillow's walkability scale), I don't think I could justify it.

[Midtowner]

Ripping on someone because they don't want to live downtown? C'mon man......this board is better than that.

I don't think anyone's ripping on them for moving, just for their rationale. I moved out of town and don't regret it. I like having a yard, a little space, and a house that doesn't cost $300/square foot.

[Larry OKC]

Considering no one other than homeless people and some hold outs at Sycamore Sq and Regency Tower lived downtown for the better part of 40 years - what more proof do you need? If you look at the number of people who relocate within metro-OKC over the past 50 years the number of people who moved from downtown to the suburbs is statistically 0. That is all I meant.

Could that be that after everyone left downtown "50 years" ago, there wasn't anyone (rom a statistical standpoint) around to make the move since then? Now that folks are living downtown, there might be more deciding it isn't for them after all.

[Just the facts]

Could that be that after everyone left downtown "50 years" ago, there wasn't anyone (rom a statistical standpoint) around to make the move since then? Now that folks are living downtown, there might be more deciding it isn't for them after all.

Larry - you summed it up pretty well.

[bluedogok]

Penn Square is a long ways to drive from downtown for mall shopping? Who knew?

Some people have a two mile comfort bubble, I knew people in Austin who thought they had to plan a trip to cross the river (Lady Bird/Town Lake).

You go to the mall maybe once or twice a month. You go the grocery store once a week if you're smart and plan your meals in advance. You go to work 5 or 6 times per week. The explanation given makes no sense.

Some people feel they have to go to the mall every week, sometimes multiple times a week. I don't get it and I am one who really doesn't desire to live downtown but that has more to do with hobbies that don't fit in the downtown world without a large building.

I knew quite a few who sold homes in places like West Lake Hills and moved to Downtown Austin after their kids were out of school, mostly to The Monarch apartments to try out downtown living. Most bought a downtown condo or bought in one of the near downtown neighborhoods (and they worked downtown). A few couples moved back out to the burbs or even the further out areas and bought land. We are planning on a place in the mountains in the future (likely Evergreen/Conifer) but we also hope to have our own businesses/practice close to home at the time that will not require a trip into Downtown Denver everyday.

[td25er]

This board is hilarious. Some people..

[MWCGuy]

Living in general requires planning if you want to maximize your time doing the things you like to do and spend less time on the things you have to do. You can live pretty much anywhere with a little planning and preparedness. Living without a grocery store nearby just means you have to plan ahead. If you don't like driving everyday, you buy to get through more than just a day or two. You pick up the things you use frequently on the way home from work. (Milk, Bread, Eggs etc.)

This couple reminds me of the folks who bought the big SUV's in the 90's and 00's that complained when gas prices shot up. Gas prices have been fluctuating for years. You don't drive something with a huge gas tank unless you need it (Large Family, haul cargo on a regular basis). You always look at the big picture when paying for big ticket items. If the pros and cons don't fully agree with you, its best to explore other options. (Living in another area, buying a different model of car or simple planning so you don't spend a fortune.)

[Urbanized]

Grocery stores are such a red herring anyway. When I lived in the 63rd and May area I lived further from a decent grocery store than I do living downtown, at least after the two supermarkets at that intersection closed. I'd venture that more than half the people in Edmond, Norman, etc. live further from a supermarket than those in downtown do from Homeland at 18th & Classen.

[bchris02]

Grocery stores are such a red herring anyway. When I lived in the 63rd and May area I lived further from a decent grocery store than I do living downtown, at least after the two supermarkets at that intersection closed. I'd venture that more than half the people in Edmond, Norman, etc. live further from a supermarket than those in downtown do from Homeland at 18th & Classen.

Agreed. Since Wal-Mart saturated the market with supercenters, the grocery stores that used to be on every corner are almost gone. I wish Homeland would remodel the 18th and Classen store to be like Britton and May or N Bryant in Edmond.

[betts]

Agreed. Since Wal-Mart saturated the market with supercenters, the grocery stores that used to be on every corner are almost gone. I wish Homeland would remodel the 18th and Classen store to be like Britton and May or N Bryant in Edmond.

And why don't they? I just don't understand it. While most people living downtown can't walk to that Homeland, it's certainly closer to me than most grocery stores are to suburban dwellers. It's nice to walk and pick up groceries, but not mandatory, IMO. I love Native Roots, but for my Rice Krispie fix I have to go to Homeland. If that Homeland were remodeled, I bet business would increase substantially. I bet Whole Foods gets a lot of the Heritage Hills and Mesta Park business that might otherwise go to a nice Homeland.

[MWCGuy]

I blame both Walmart and the mismanagement that lead to the collapse of Fleming is what killed the grocery market in this city. I know Buchanan's and a few others sold out to Fleming out of fear of Walmart putting them under. The rest dug their heels in and were ready to fight. The collaps of Fleming took out the rest of stores because they couldn't find suppliers that would allow them to continue to operate and still make a comfortable living.

[Midtowner]

Fleming? Wasn't that like 10 years ago?

[bradh]

our grocery market here sucks, it is one of the top things I hate about here compared to when I lived back home in Houston, but that's for another thread.

[bchris02]

our grocery market here sucks, it is one of the top things I hate about here compared to when I lived back home in Houston, but that's for another thread.

They say every time a Wal-Mart Supercenter opens, at least two neighborhood grocers close their doors. I don't think any other city has as many Supercenters per capita as OKC. The only way a national chain is going to come in and try to compete in a market so dominated by Wal-Mart is if they can sell wine or liquor. As is, even if they were successful the profit margin would be so thin I don't think companies see it as worth the investment.

[Dubya61]

I blame both Walmart and the mismanagement that lead to the collapse of Fleming is what killed the grocery market in this city. I know Buchanan's and a few others sold out to Fleming out of fear of Walmart putting them under. The rest dug their heels in and were ready to fight. The collaps of Fleming took out the rest of stores because they couldn't find suppliers that would allow them to continue to operate and still make a comfortable living.

They say every time a Wal-Mart Supercenter opens, at least two neighborhood grocers close their doors. I don't think any other city has as many Supercenters per capita as OKC. The only way a national chain is going to come in and try to compete in a market so dominated by Wal-Mart is if they can sell wine or liquor. As is, even if they were successful the profit margin would be so thin I don't think companies see it as worth the investment.

So, how did we get to be so Walmart heavy? Did Fleming Foods provide a distribution for local grocers that was the only possible way for a local grocer to compete with Walmart? How does Crest do it? Is there a replacement to Fleming Foods? How about the Allied Grocer people out by the airport? Why did Fleming Foods die? Was Walmart complicit in their failure?
I know there's a lot of chicken and egg-type questions here, but I had completely forgotten about Fleming Foods and just thought that our Walmartization was something normal and natural in the evolution of grocers. I'm not so sure, anymore. Any ideas on that?

[Bellaboo]

So, how did we get to be so Walmart heavy? Did Fleming Foods provide a distribution for local grocers that was the only possible way for a local grocer to compete with Walmart? How does Crest do it? Is there a replacement to Fleming Foods? How about the Allied Grocer people out by the airport? Why did Fleming Foods die? Was Walmart complicit in their failure?
I know there's a lot of chicken and egg-type questions here, but I had completely forgotten about Fleming Foods and just thought that our Walmartization was something normal and natural in the evolution of grocers. I'm not so sure, anymore. Any ideas on that?

My co-worker was with Fleming for over 20 years. I asked why they died, and he said lots of reasons, but it started by buying Scrivner. Over extended with debt, they institued the 'FFMP', Fleming Flexible Marketing Plan, in which vendors were charged delivery charges by the mile, putting a big squeeze on mom and pop vendors that were farther from the distribution centers... He also stated when they moved to Lewisville, they centralized purchasing for the entire country.....it didn't work, people in New Hampshire didn't want the same amount of refried beans that people in Arizona did. In the end, he said it was basic greed and the change at the top in the last couple of years that did them in.

[Midtowner]

They say every time a Wal-Mart Supercenter opens, at least two neighborhood grocers close their doors. I don't think any other city has as many Supercenters per capita as OKC. The only way a national chain is going to come in and try to compete in a market so dominated by Wal-Mart is if they can sell wine or liquor. As is, even if they were successful the profit margin would be so thin I don't think companies see it as worth the investment.

Is that what "they" say?

[Pete]

I wonder the best way to go about petitioning Homeland to renovate their location on Classen?

That would represent a huge amenity for those in the central core without having to lure an entire new operator/location.

[Midtowner]

I wonder the best way to go about petitioning Homeland to renovate their location on Classen?

That would represent a huge amenity for those in the central core without having to lure an entire new operator/location.

Well, they say they're employee owned, so maybe ask a cashier?

(sarc)

[bchris02]

So, how did we get to be so Walmart heavy? Did Fleming Foods provide a distribution for local grocers that was the only possible way for a local grocer to compete with Walmart? How does Crest do it? Is there a replacement to Fleming Foods? How about the Allied Grocer people out by the airport? Why did Fleming Foods die? Was Walmart complicit in their failure?
I know there's a lot of chicken and egg-type questions here, but I had completely forgotten about Fleming Foods and just thought that our Walmartization was something normal and natural in the evolution of grocers. I'm not so sure, anymore. Any ideas on that?

I'm not familiar with Fleming or anything about them. I do know these two things though.

1) OKC was a test market for Wal-Mart to see how much of the grocery market they could capture. They called it their market saturation strategy. Other markets such as Austin, another market Wal-Mart was going to attempt this in, have fought back after seeing what happened in OKC.

2) The major chains i.e. Albertson's that were here prior to the Wal-Mart onslaught were offering Oklahomans an inferior product compared to what they were offering in other states. That have people little incentive to shop there over Wal-Mart.

[JayhawkTransplant]

Parts of this thread reminds me about the billboard for a subdivision in Edmond that was, until very recently, at the corner of Kelley and 33rd. The "Kelley Pointe" billboard had a picture of two adorable little boys and read "Kelley Pointe is not downtown, but neither is your family!" For some reason, that billboard always rubbed me the wrong way...it was as if it suggested that it is impossible to have a family downtown. And the billboard is located on a section that has been vacant for quite some time, which makes me wonder how successful their slogan is!

I hope the couple figures out what they want. I think it's important to try different homes out, especially before having kids, to figure out what you want as a couple. So, whatever their reasoning, I applaud their decision. Personally, I would love to move back downtown soon. Unfortunately, I have two 50-pound dogs, so renting is pretty much out of the picture. Once I sell my house and make enough profit to afford a decent condo, I'll be living where I have never felt happier--downtown.

[bradh]

The only way a national chain is going to come in and try to compete in a market so dominated by Wal-Mart is if they can sell wine or liquor.

This is the big reason. It's a shame, because the Kroger in Flower Mound where I shopped when I lived in North Texas was awesome. I like Buy for Less here though, it's about the closest to what we had in Texas, minus the alcohol. I can't stand Crest stores.