Windsor District

[soonerguru]

What time period was the Musgrave-Pennington neighborhood developed?

1950.

[Just the facts]

The Windsor area needs to look at greyfield redevelopment. Over the next 20 years a lot of people are going to move to OKC and even more will relocate within metro-OKC. If Windsor gives these people an option that is in high demand but not widely available in metro OKC the sky is the limit.

[Urbanized]

I think people continue (understandably, thanks to the word itself) to be confused by he word "walkable". In the planning sense it doesn't at all refer simply to whether there are decent sidewalks. I've started to believe that the word is unfortunate, because it is so easily misinterpreted.

When a place is truly Walkable (cap mine), it is a place not just where people CAN walk but instead is a place where most people WANT (or would even PREFER) to walk. It includes many factors besides decent paved sidewalks.

[Urbanized]

By the way, the previous post (obviously a bit off-topic) was not directed at the neighborhood in question, which has the potential to become a really nice comeback area. I'm always enthusiastic about inner city neighborhoods stabilizing and rebounding, especially when it involves organized residents and property owners. I was more so directing at comments that I see in this and other threads that seem to equate "walkable" with "has sidewalks instead of dirt paths."

[Geographer]

By the way, the previous post (obviously a bit off-topic) was not directed at the neighborhood in question, which has the potential to become a really nice comeback area. More so at comments that I see in this and other threads that seem to equate "walkable" with "has sidewalks instead of dirt paths."

Obviously walkable doesn't simply mean a place that has concrete sidewalks instead of dirt paths. You can have dirt everything and an area can be totally walkable. I just meant that with the "relative" location of the neighborhoods to the windsor shopping center, new sidewalks might reveal the walkability of this area to the residents.

[soonerguru]

True, but sidewalks help, as they will in this neighborhood.

[adaniel]

Definitely starting to look more at the Musgrave Pennington area. Just looking on zillow, there are quite a few neat looking mid century homes that can be had for 100K or less. Even in a cheap place like OKC, that can be a bit of a risky proposition, but the neighborhood looks like a solid middle/working class area.

There are lots of nice areas that are hidden from view in west OKC like this and I hope there are more corridor improvement projects like this.

[Geographer]

Definitely starting to look more at the Musgrave Pennington area. Just looking on zillow, there are quite a few neat looking mid century homes that can be had for 100K or less. Even in a cheap place like OKC, that can be a bit of a risky proposition, but the neighborhood looks like a solid middle/working class area.

There are lots of nice areas that are hidden from view in west OKC like this and I hope there are more corridor improvement projects like this.

Yeah, it's a nice little hidden neighborhood with great street connectivity....in the time period between grid blocks and suburban cul-de-sacs. There's some nice bends and curves in the streets but they still keep a "grid-like" form and do not have many dead-ends. There's also a little elementary school in the middle of the neighborhood as well.

[soonerguru]

Definitely starting to look more at the Musgrave Pennington area. Just looking on zillow, there are quite a few neat looking mid century homes that can be had for 100K or less. Even in a cheap place like OKC, that can be a bit of a risky proposition, but the neighborhood looks like a solid middle/working class area.

There are lots of nice areas that are hidden from view in west OKC like this and I hope there are more corridor improvement projects like this.

It is a nice little neighborhood and it's really been on the upswing the last couple of years. Houses go on the market and sell very fast here.

[OKCDrummer77]

I live in Musgrave Pennington, so first let me say that I appreciate all of the kind words about my neighborhood. I live on 19th Street, the tree-lined boulevard that runs through the heart of the neighborhood, and I'm really happy with the area. I look forward to watching this project take off.

On a somewhat related note, I moved here from The Village, so I like to think I'm doing my small part to fight urban sprawl -- I moved closer to downtown. :

[soonerguru]

I live in Musgrave Pennington, so first let me say that I appreciate all of the kind words about my neighborhood. I live on 19th Street, the tree-lined boulevard that runs through the heart of the neighborhood, and I'm really happy with the area. I look forward to watching this project take off.

On a somewhat related note, I moved here from The Village, so I like to think I'm doing my small part to fight urban sprawl -- I moved closer to downtown. :

19th is great!

[krisb]

I'd like to put in a plug for the neighborhoods just north of 23rd street which is slated for resurfacing and sidewalks within the boundaries of Meridian, Portland, NW 23rd, and NW 36th. Skyline Neighborhood situated just west of Will Rogers Park and extending to Utah was a finalist for Neighborhood of the Year last year.

I agree with the previous comments that this entire area is poised to make a comeback. With historic charm and affordability, it becomes a viable option for young urbanites who can't afford the gentrified "historic" neighborhoods. The socioeconomic diversity helps the area to maintain true ethnic diversity as well. There are a ton of ethnic restaurants and grocers in the area. Also, there's a group of artists who hold regular WePo (West of Portland) art shows for artists who live and work in the area including Joe Slack.

[foodiefan]

more on the "WePo" art exhibitions??

[krisb]

more on the "WePo" art exhibitions??

I am not aware of any upcoming exhibitions, but Joe Slack is the coordinator. JOESLACK.COM

[soonerguru]

Update: The city has repaved NW 23rd all the way to I-44. While this isn't the final road surface, it is indeed welcomed and has made a major improvement to the road while we await the beginning of the streetscape project. Thank you, OKC.

[bluedogok]

When my parents moved from Altus to OKC in 1964 they moved right by Buchanan Elementary then bought a house a year later in the Hilldale neighborhood (for $14,000), they are still there. At the time their neighborhood was built (mid-50's) it was the out lying suburbs, the city limits was along the old railroad spur line behind their house, the acreages along Ann Arbor was the unincorporated area of Council Grove to the west.

[Chicken In The Rough]

I have vague memories of Hilldale being OKC's most densely populated area at one time. I think I heard this back in the 70s. This should aid walkability. I would also like to see the redevelopment of the Windsor Hills Center and the redevelopment of the apartments just to the west with greater density in mind. Lose the expansive parking lots and out parcels, improve interaction with the street, and clean-up the source of much of this area's blight. This would cause a renaissance in Windsor Hills which is an anchor for this area of town.

[Geographer]

The Windsor Hills shopping center is controlled by an out-of-state investment group, so it might be difficult to get them to help "revamp" the area...just speculation from me, though

[Teo9969]

My only hesitation about all this is timing.

I'm fine with business owners of the area taking initiative to make the area a greater urban "district". It is only a natural extension of what's going on not only all over OKC, but specifically on 23rd 3 miles to the east.

...That being said, I hope that we're strategic about how quickly we spread our resources to different areas, and I think the best strategy in the immediate future is to hold off serious movement in this area for about 5 years.

1. Of the non downtown areas, I think Uptown (23rd particularly, but also Asian/Paseo) and Plaza are the preeminent districts that need to developed correctly over the next 5 years, and they need to get the full attention of non-DT developers in order to build the highest level of sustainability that can be reasonably expected around here.

2. I think Capitol Hill really needs to get kickstarted soon, because it can't last forever in its current shape. Once it gets moving, this area will develop as quick as probably anywhere in the city because the layout and building stock is unreal.

3. Western Avenue seems more crucial to me because it's in the core.

4. Windsor will arguably be the first time OKC addresses a truly suburban/sprawl district with the goal of increasing its urban character. We need to be far enough along with other districts to know what qualities we're looking for and how to adapt those qualities for an area like this. It's important that we get it right the first time through for not only the health of this district, but so that we have a great template to use when we start moving toward working on other areas that are similar (remembering that looking toward the next 50 years, these types of districts are going to be far more common in redevelopment than the districts like Plaza/Paseo/Uptown.

[Snowman]

4. Windsor will arguably be the first time OKC addresses a truly suburban/sprawl district with the goal of increasing its urban character. We need to be far enough along with other districts to know what qualities we're looking for and how to adapt those qualities for an area like this. It's important that we get it right the first time through for not only the health of this district, but so that we have a great template to use when we start moving toward working on other areas that are similar (remembering that looking toward the next 50 years, these types of districts are going to be far more common in redevelopment than the districts like Plaza/Paseo/Uptown.

I pretty much consider 23rd and Paseo sprawl as well. They were just such early sprawl that they still had more elements of traditional city design than suburban design. With four to six extensions of streets in the Musgrave-Pennington area cutting up the super long blocks it could fit pretty classic design patterns (though in classic patterns the curves would be due to a river and it's tributaries or something that made straighter lines less practical)

[Geographer]

My only hesitation about all this is timing.

Most of what's being done in the Windsor area (outside of a new street scape) is being done by private entities with limited funds from the city. I believe the time is right for this area to begin to organize itself. The initiation of this "district" came from the private businesses wanting their area to prosper.

[soonerguru]

My only hesitation about all this is timing.

I'm fine with business owners of the area taking initiative to make the area a greater urban "district". It is only a natural extension of what's going on not only all over OKC, but specifically on 23rd 3 miles to the east.

...That being said, I hope that we're strategic about how quickly we spread our resources to different areas, and I think the best strategy in the immediate future is to hold off serious movement in this area for about 5 years.

1. Of the non downtown areas, I think Uptown (23rd particularly, but also Asian/Paseo) and Plaza are the preeminent districts that need to developed correctly over the next 5 years, and they need to get the full attention of non-DT developers in order to build the highest level of sustainability that can be reasonably expected around here.

2. I think Capitol Hill really needs to get kickstarted soon, because it can't last forever in its current shape. Once it gets moving, this area will develop as quick as probably anywhere in the city because the layout and building stock is unreal.

3. Western Avenue seems more crucial to me because it's in the core.

4. Windsor will arguably be the first time OKC addresses a truly suburban/sprawl district with the goal of increasing its urban character. We need to be far enough along with other districts to know what qualities we're looking for and how to adapt those qualities for an area like this. It's important that we get it right the first time through for not only the health of this district, but so that we have a great template to use when we start moving toward working on other areas that are similar (remembering that looking toward the next 50 years, these types of districts are going to be far more common in redevelopment than the districts like Plaza/Paseo/Uptown.

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say. The 23rd St. Streetscape project that's about to start was a result of the 2007 bond issue. Six years seems like a long time to wait to get minor road improvements and sidewalks. I think the area has waited long enough.

Regarding the improvements to businesses, etc., this is being paid for by the businesses themselves, not OKC taxpayers.

This kind of organized effort by private citizens and their area businesses should be undertaken wherever possible. There's no reason these things cannot happen simultaneously throughout OKC (as long as the area residents roll up their sleeves and do it).

[Teo9969]

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say. The 23rd St. Streetscape project that's about to start was a result of the 2007 bond issue. Six years seems like a long time to wait to get minor road improvements and sidewalks. I think the area has waited long enough.

Regarding the improvements to businesses, etc., this is being paid for by the businesses themselves, not OKC taxpayers.

This kind of organized effort by private citizens and their area businesses should be undertaken wherever possible. There's no reason these things cannot happen simultaneously throughout OKC (as long as the area residents roll up their sleeves and do it).

I'm not saying don't use any public funds in the area. In fact, they need to start the work on 23rd West of I-44 soon, because that road is truly atrocious and has probably caused more damage to the vehicles that drive on it frequently than the money that will be spent to make the road better.

I'm also not saying businesses and individuals already in the area should not invest in the area.

But...All of these districts inevitably do their own sort of recruiting and advertising so that investors from around the city will bring their money and development into the area so it can become a more desirable place to live, work and play. It is resources currently outside of the district and any additional money from the city that is not run of the mill money that I'm hoping will hold off on this area for 5 to 10 years (depending on OKC's rate of growth).

[jdcf]

IMO Windsor is an area in transition that could go either way. The quicker the resources, the more likely success and opportunities for neighborhood enhancement.

I am not sure what the focus is or should be. The focus won't be the same as midtown or uptown. The area is becoming a blend of ethnicities and remains an area of families and singles, older and younger.

I would like to see the apartments near 23rd and Meridian cleaned up and out as well as the shopping center. Retail that focuses on families might do well. A storefront Y or library would also do well.

Sidewalks along Meridian are going to help foot traffic to the shopping center and restaurants.

Safety and crime also need to be kept on the table.

[krisb]

Great cities have great neighborhoods. Think about the investments around Lake Hefner, Chesapeake/Nichols Hills, and Western Avenue that are outside the downtown area and how they affect quality of life. These pockets of urbanism are the fabric that makes up the Oklahoma City quilt. The area west of I-44 is quickly becoming a hub of authentic ethnic cuisine due to the large population of immigrants in that part of the city, so I think it deserves some attention and resources.