University Town Center

[HangryHippo]

That's why this development is not spectacular. You will have to drive around it to see it. Too bad it won't invite you out of your car.

Exactly. What's spectacular about another strip mall?

[Just the facts]

In terms of sales tax revenue? Sure, it's great.

Not when you factor in the public cost of generating that tax revenue.

[jedicurt]

I agree with you on this. All these people bitching and moaning about this, need to move on to the next cause. Or, maybe put up their own money to show everyone how it should be done.

I would like to.. but seeing as how Norman keeps rejecting proposals for items that are more urban, i don't see how they would allow it. Some people have tried to put up money to show how it should be done, and the Norman Council keeps proving that they don't even want to consider a different view.

So what's your next suggestion of what we should do? Or were you just making a post bitching and moaning about people bitching and moaning?

[SOONER8693]

Or were you just making a post bitching and moaning about people bitching and moaning?[/QUOTE]
Probably just this.

[Plutonic Panda]

That's why this development is not spectacular. You will have to drive around it to see it. Too bad it won't invite you out of your car.

When I said I'll drive up to it and I meant I'll be driving up from Edmond to see it. I still think this has the potential to be a good development. Not every great development has to be 100% walkable. I can walk around Frisco just fine. At any rate, it all comes down to what you're looking for in a new mall. I don't think this is going to be "just another strip mall", just due to the fact that it isn't walkable. I'd love a new pedestrian oriented lifestyle center in OKC, but this is cool. Most people will get out of their cars at the different buildings and just like Frisco where they have Stonebriar surrounded by a bunch of little stand alone buildings and you can drive up to them and they have 4-10 stores and when you're done, you get in your car and drive to the next one. I see no problem in this sort of development. It's all in personal preference I suppose.

BTW, I don't prefer a non-walkable vs. walkable development, just saying that I don't think this is a horrid project.

[Plutonic Panda]

Not when you factor in the public cost of generating that tax revenue.

What do you mean?

[catch22]

What do you mean?

How many millions does it cost to build and maintain the roads for this development and the traffic increase on surrounding roads over the life of the shopping center. Compared to how much tax revenue it brings in.

[Plutonic Panda]

How many millions does it cost to build and maintain the roads for this development and the traffic increase on surrounding roads over the life of the shopping center. Compared to how much tax revenue it brings in.

Oh, wouldn't it be the same case for a walkable lifestyle center? People would still have to drive there. Anyhow, hopefully we can a light-rail soon with a good bus network to solve some of it.

[Geographer]

Oh, wouldn't it be the same case for a walkable lifestyle center? People would still have to drive there. Anyhow, hopefully we can a light-rail soon with a good bus network to solve some of it.

where did the phrase "lifestyle center" come from? What exactly is a lifestyle center?

[BoulderSooner]

Not when you factor in the public cost of generating that tax revenue.

nope still great

[Just the facts]

Isn't UNP exempted from some kind of taxation (except for businesses that relocate from within Norman).

[HangryHippo]

nope still great

You're wrong too.

This isn't anywhere close to the great development we were sold by the Norman City Council. The same city council that in recent articles continues to talk about how much of a letdown this project has been and why they felt compelled to pay for the enhancements to the service road fountain they're building. Because the development isn't anywhere close to living up to the hype around the original billing.

[BoulderSooner]

You're wrong too.

This isn't anywhere close to the great development we were sold by the Norman City Council. The same city council that in recent articles continues to talk about how much of a letdown this project has been and why they felt compelled to pay for the enhancements to the service road fountain they're building. Because the development isn't anywhere close to living up to the hype around the original billing.

my comment was specifically about tax generation ..

[HangryHippo]

my comment was specifically about tax generation ..

My apologies. That wasn't clear to me from your reply.

[Plutonic Panda]

where did the phrase "lifestyle center" come from? What exactly is a lifestyle center?

According to Spartan, this is a lifestyle center. I don't know if this is true or not, I thought it looked more like a town center.

http://www.okctalk.com/other-communi...stlake-oh.html

[Just the facts]

What portion of the sales tax does Norman get and how long will it take them to recoup the $521,000 dollars for the fountain improvements?

[HangryHippo]

According to Spartan, this is a lifestyle center. I don't know if this is true or not, I thought it looked more like a town center.

http://www.okctalk.com/other-communi...stlake-oh.html

But surely you see the difference between that and UNP?

[gamecock]

But surely you see the difference between that and UNP?

I like that development quite a bit and would love to see something like it in Norman (or elsewhere in OKC), but that is not what people were told they would get. Also, nothing that has been built so far is even part of what was originally described as the "spectacular lifestyle center" . . . I think it is appropriate to have high expectations, and surely there have been missteps (some of which are attributable to the economy tanking right after this was announced), but some folks are now overstating how badly this has gone.

[Plutonic Panda]

But surely you see the difference between that and UNP?

Of course I do, and I would love to have a development like that in OKC. Is that what was originally touted by the Norman City Council??? If so, then I see the disappointment. . . if not, then from what I see in the renderings, it looks like a very nice suburban development.

I think something like the Westlake development would be good for Downtown Edmond or Norman, possibly the new C2S area, or possibly Midtown, but if they would've put that in the UNP area, then that would be cool as well. I would just not expect something like that, esp. in OKC to be in an area like UNP, that is like putting it near 15th/I35 in Edmond. I think there are better places to place a development like that in OKC. Anyhow, I think it is fine for what it is. . . I really do want a good lifestyle center like the Westlake development here in OKC, just saying,

[Geographer]

I laugh at the lifestyle center terminology and the whole development thought process. When did we stop building cohesive neighborhoods and just piecemeal-ing "places" together? But, if "lifestyle centers" can get back to neighborhood building (doesn't even have to be mixed use buildings, just decrease the large swaths of zones and intermingle residential/commercial better), then that's cool I suppose.

Too many subdivisions and developments...not enough neighborhoods.

[venture]

According to Spartan, this is a lifestyle center. I don't know if this is true or not, I thought it looked more like a town center.

http://www.okctalk.com/other-communi...stlake-oh.html

That's how most of the lifestyle centers look up North.

Of course I do, and I would love to have a development like that in OKC. Is that what was originally touted by the Norman City Council??? If so, then I see the disappointment. . . if not, then from what I see in the renderings, it looks like a very nice suburban development.

I think something like the Westlake development would be good for Downtown Edmond or Norman, possibly the new C2S area, or possibly Midtown, but if they would've put that in the UNP area, then that would be cool as well. I would just not expect something like that, esp. in OKC to be in an area like UNP, that is like putting it near 15th/I35 in Edmond. I think there are better places to place a development like that in OKC. Anyhow, I think it is fine for what it is. . . I really do want a good lifestyle center like the Westlake development here in OKC, just saying,

I believe the biggest program with the UNP development is the lifestyle center portion of it has been delayed significantly so far, that the other development is all that gets any attention. I want to say the original plans have always called for the existing development you see now to be there. The problem is the more upscale portion that was promised has been delayed and wasn't developed at the same time as the other fill in areas.

Hopefully we'll see things changed some when the new City Council comes into power in a couple of weeks as Norman residents did a fair amount of house cleaning. Then it is just a matter of getting rid of the others that weren't up for re-election this last time around.

[Plutonic Panda]

That's how most of the lifestyle centers look up North.



I believe the biggest program with the UNP development is the lifestyle center portion of it has been delayed significantly so far, that the other development is all that gets any attention. I want to say the original plans have always called for the existing development you see now to be there. The problem is the more upscale portion that was promised has been delayed and wasn't developed at the same time as the other fill in areas.

Hopefully we'll see things changed some when the new City Council comes into power in a couple of weeks as Norman residents did a fair amount of house cleaning. Then it is just a matter of getting rid of the others that weren't up for re-election this last time around.

But there is still plenty of room to build a life style or more walkable type of development?

[venture]

But there is still plenty of room to build a life style or more walkable type of development?

The town/lifestyle center development is suppose to go in south of Embassy Suites, so there is room for that.

If they wanted to make it more walkable they could start to convert more of the parking lot space with additional buildings. I would have to say any future buildings need to be 2-3 stories to permit office/residential space above the stores. Then start implementing either parking garages or trams from Downtown Norman, Campus, and the Mall.

[Plutonic Panda]

The town/lifestyle center development is suppose to go in south of Embassy Suites, so there is room for that.

If they wanted to make it more walkable they could start to convert more of the parking lot space with additional buildings. I would have to say any future buildings need to be 2-3 stories to permit office/residential space above the stores. Then start implementing either parking garages or trams from Downtown Norman, Campus, and the Mall.

I agree with everything you just said. I never understood why they build these massive parking lots that are horribly under utilized. It would seem to me like they could get more profit by adding more stores. You make money renting/leasing space for tenants, not parking, unless you charge to park, which would be outrageous!

[Roger S]

I agree with everything you just said. I never understood why they build these massive parking lots that are horribly under utilized.

The city requires that we provide X amount of parking spaces for X amount of SF of the building. That's why we design these massive parking lots. If the choice was left solely to the developer you would probably see much less parking.