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Thread: What do you consider "Downtown"?

  1. #26

    Default Re: What do you consider "Downtown"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry OKC View Post

    The compactness of our downtown was brought up in the MAPS 3 Streetcar "downtown circulator" discussions. Since it IS so small, do we even need such a thing?
    Would you walk from Walnut and Sheridan to 13th and Dewey? If you were going to the Peake for an event, would you park at the garage (to be built) on 10th between Broadway and Robinson and walk there? In the rain? In August when it's 110 degrees? In the winter? Most people in OKC would not walk those distances, especially in weather like I've described. If the streetcar is a downtown "circulator", then the eastern boundary is walking distance to the east of Walnut, the west of Dewey, the south of the boulevard and the north of 13th.

  2. Default Re: What do you consider "Downtown"?

    I'm not sure Larry has the frame of reference to answer those questions. He's been pretty open in the past regarding the fact that he doesn't interact with downtown that often, either for business or pleasure. I think his question was sincere.

    Larry, I'm not a regular promoter on here of the streetcar or even someone who spends significant time reading the streetcar thread or updating myself much on the details of the project. But to answer your question - which stated another way asks whether it is convenient or likely for people to circulate throughout downtown on foot - the answer is that it is not. Downtown is compact as far as downtowns in large-ish cities go, but it is pretty unlikely that people will regularly walk, for instance, from Midtown to Bricktown, or from 9th Street to the CBD, etc. Especially in the conditions described above, which are regular in OKC.

    The more appropriate question might be whether such pedestrian circulation is needed for a healthy downtown, and whether a healthy and thriving downtown benefits the city and taxpayers at large. I think the answer to both questions is yes. The next question is whether government (and taxpayer) intervention is a reasonable approach to achieve this. Again, I (and a majority of voters) believe that it is. Finally, the question is whether the streetcar is the best way to accomplish the aforementioned pedestrian circulation, and again, the voters have spoken.

    Whether you or I agree with that at this point is immaterial. It was voted for, and it should be built to the highest level that the budget will allow. I believe this of every MAPS project. The will of the people should be the end of the debate on WHETHER something should happen. Now is the time to discuss HOW it happens.

    Now, back on thread topic: I agree with the 13th/235/river/Classen definition of downtown's boundaries, and also agree that if you talk to the OKC general populace you'll get wildly-ranging definitions, including lumping everything south of 23rd or even 36th into it. You'll probably also find quite a few who will call everything in the 13th/235/river/Classen boundaries "Bricktown."

  3. #28

    Default Re: What do you consider "Downtown"?

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post
    the CBD is compact right now but downtown OKC is not compact as it includes numerous districts that surround the CBD. Therefore, it is essential for there to be some sort of reliable (and predictable) transit to connect the districts; hence the streetcar component of MAPS III to which an overwhelming supermajority of the voters of OKC approved.
    What??? While it is true the in the City's unscientific internet MAPS 3 Survey, Mass Transit received the "super majority" of suggestions, MAPS 3 barely passed at the ballot box. In school board elections where a super majority is required for passage, the rate is 60% approval. While some incarnations of MAPS have received super-majority, MAPS 1 & 3 didn't even come close.

    Betts & Urbanized: Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I was NOT saying that the Streetcar should be scrapped. Simply pointing out that there were those on the Council (think it was Pete White) that noticed the compactness and questioned if there was even a need for a downtown circulator. I also agree that the time to debate that was BEFORE it was presented to voters, not after. Others had posted in one of the threads at the time, they could walk from one end of downtown to the other in 20 minutes or less? As Betts has correctly pointed out at another time, other cities (daughter in Chicago?) with weather just as extreme as ours and with downtowns less compact think nothing of walking the distances that Okies balk at. Right or wrong, good or bad, totally different mindset here than some other places.

    I also agree that after the voters have spoken, any attempt to divert from what voters were told (even if it didn't appear on the Ballot or Ordinance) should be met with strong resistance. Yes, even for the projects that didn't have majority support like the Convention Center. We weren't given the option of which items we wanted. It was all-or-nothing. My employer is just off Penn between Reno and 10th. We don't consider ourselves to be "Downtown" (been at the same location since the 60s or 70s), but "near Downtown". But that's just my perspective and answering the thread question. Some agree and some don't.

  4. #29

    Default Re: What do you consider "Downtown"?

    maps 3 well more than "barely passed" (and that was with a very vocal opposition)

    the chamber polling showed that transit would carry the maps 3 ballot ...

  5. #30

    Default Re: What do you consider "Downtown"?

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner View Post
    maps 3 well more than "barely passed" (and that was with a very vocal opposition)

    the chamber polling showed that transit would carry the maps 3 ballot ...
    Correct. However, Larry believes a 6-8 point margin at the polls is a very close vote, so you probably won't convince him. In today's divided electorate, getting anything more than a four or five-point win is a decisive win, IMO. It's just a matter of perspective. Larry's is clearly different.

  6. #31

    Default Re: What do you consider "Downtown"?

    FACT: MAPS 3 passed by almost exactly the same percentages as MAPS...even when you look at the ward-by-ward breakdowns of the 2 elections, the results were very similar. it wasn't just me, the media reported it as "barely passing" back then too...think even Mayor Norrick at the time said something to that effect...reportedly, the Chamber polling showed that the Convention Center very nearly pulled the entire thing down too.

  7. #32

    Default Re: What do you consider "Downtown"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry OKC View Post
    FACT: MAPS 3 passed by almost exactly the same percentages as MAPS...even when you look at the ward-by-ward breakdowns of the 2 elections, the results were very similar. it wasn't just me, the media reported it as "barely passing" back then too...think even Mayor Norrick at the time said something to that effect...reportedly, the Chamber polling showed that the Convention Center very nearly pulled the entire thing down too.
    Maps passed by 54%. Norrick agreed it was a "squeaker".

    Chapter 12

    Voices of Oklahoma: RON NORICK

    A good site.

  8. #33

    Default Re: What do you consider "Downtown"?

    I posted some time back about WHY the MAPS vote was actually very close. On a national scale an 8 point win would be a huge win. A local race not so much. Here's my explanation from another post. This seems to come up a lot, so for those who don't think it was close, please read what I wrote back in April.

    You can't talk about margins being small or large unless you know the total numbers. These days with millions of votes, or even hundreds of thousands, an 8 point margin is huge. With tens of thousands or thousands, it's a small margin. For example, if you had 1,000,000 voters, a 540,000 to 460,000 is fairly significant, with 10,000,000 voters, a 5.4 million to 4.6 million is considered a large victory. Now the other extreme you have 100 voters and it's 54 voters to 46 voters, that's very darn close, 50 voters and it's 27 votes to 23, extremely close even with the 8% margin. With city council and runoff elections you're dealing with numbers to where the total vote at an 8% margin is actually a close election.

    If you're still skeptical about the linguistics and math of "good" "bad" "close" etc., turn the margin into interest on a CD. Is 8% interest great? At $100 you make $8, not so great. At $100,000.000 it's $8,000,000, pretty darn great. It's all methodical and definitive, but still relative depending on the total investment dollars. Or, with total number of voters.

  9. #34

    Default Re: What do you consider "Downtown"?

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    lol

  10. #35

    Default Re: What do you consider "Downtown"?

    Quote Originally Posted by OKCisOK4me View Post
    D

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    lol
    Fixed!

    One thing is for sure, when people talk about all the investment "downtown" they're not talking about in neighborhoods as far north as 36th street or as far west as Linwood. Most people equate "downtown" with the CBD and bordering districts. I think BBates had a pretty good boundary map.

  11. #36

    Default Re: What do you consider "Downtown"?

    Quote Originally Posted by zookeeper View Post
    Fixed!

    One thing is for sure, when people talk about all the investment "downtown" they're not talking about in neighborhoods as far north as 36th street or as far west as Linwood. Most people equate "downtown" with the CBD and bordering districts. I think BBates had a pretty good boundary map.
    You'd be surprised how many people, especially from outlying rural/exurban areas, stretch out the borders of downtown to include everything as far west as 44 and as far north as 36th.

    In New Orleans, "downtown" includes the CBD, plus all the neighborhoods downriver along the Miss River including Treme, Bywater, Lower 9th Ward, etc. So its not out the question for DT to go out that far.

    With that in mind, I tend to agree with the established boundaries here, with a possible addition of Heritage Hills and Mesta Park.

  12. #37

    Default Re: What do you consider "Downtown"?

    I call it Bricktown, the Myriad, and the surrounding mile or two. I include Deep Deuce in this-- I don't include Paseo.

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