University Town Center

[Spartan]

The UNP TIF district was formed to be economic development tool for the City of Norman. The logic was to build a high-quality development that would be attractive to tenants that would be a regional draw. People from around the region then would shop there and pay sales taxes to the City of Norman. For the regional draw part to work, the development ideally needs to be near a freeway (the UNP is) and it must have ample parking because people outside the City of Norman must drive to get there. One can debate whether or not the UNP is actually a regional draw, but the decision to have ample parking is consistent with the UNP’s intended purpose of being a regional draw.

Nobody is debating the number of parking spaces that should be allowed, or even whether it should just be surface parking. What I don't understand is why the parking isn't pushed to the back to allow for at least something resembling a cheesy lifestyle center. This has always been proposed as a lifestyle center, and that's why the citizens including myself back when I was still in Norman, voted for it. It wasn't a matter of doing economic development behind a strip mall (I promise you, that would have been voted down) but it was the idea that a public-private partnership could accomplish superior economic development with a superior lifestyle development. Now build at least a cheesy lifestyle center.

And no revisionist history. We didn't just vote for a strip mall.

[vaflyer]

Nobody is debating the number of parking spaces that should be allowed, or even whether it should just be surface parking. What I don't understand is why the parking isn't pushed to the back to allow for at least something resembling a cheesy lifestyle center. This has always been proposed as a lifestyle center, and that's why the citizens including myself back when I was still in Norman, voted for it. It wasn't a matter of doing economic development behind a strip mall (I promise you, that would have been voted down) but it was the idea that a public-private partnership could accomplish superior economic development with a superior lifestyle development. Now build at least a cheesy lifestyle center.

And no revisionist history. We didn't just vote for a strip mall.

I agree that not all parts of the UNP have worked out like many (including myself) would have wanted. There are parts that I like (Embassy Suites, Super Target, DSW) and parts I do not (Dollar Tree, Academy (the building), Discount Tire). Remember, they developers always said that the strip mall component would be developed first to bring up the traffic counts so the lifestyle center would be viable. That being said, the City of Norman should continue to push the developers to uphold the high standards that everyone wanted when the TIF was approved.

The most recent presentation by developers offered some encouraging signs (the tower, Zoe’s Kitchen, and the new Mathis Brothers store) but some on this blog want to continue put down this development for any reason they can find. I know this development is not currently at the level many of us had wanted but I am seeing many encouraging signs that suggest things are improving.

[Spartan]

I agree that not all parts of the UNP have worked out like many (including myself) would have wanted. There are parts that I like (Embassy Suites, Super Target, DSW) and parts I do not (Dollar Tree, Academy (the building), Discount Tire). Remember, they developers always said that the strip mall component would be developed first to bring up the traffic counts so the lifestyle center would be viable. That being said, the City of Norman should continue to push the developers to uphold the high standards that everyone wanted when the TIF was approved.

The most recent presentation by developers offered some encouraging signs (the tower, Zoe’s Kitchen, and the new Mathis Brothers store) but some on this blog want to continue put down this development for any reason they can find. I know this development is not currently at the level many of us had wanted but I am seeing many encouraging signs that suggest things are improving.

It's not putting down the development for any reason that we can find, it's just that people aren't willing to grasp at straws to find something to support amongst this inexcusable mess that so-called urbanist Cindy Rosenthal's term as mayor is responsible for. The encouraging signs that you're pointing to are essentially a new Mexican restaurant, a little more landscaping paid for by the city, and a new iconic entrance sign. There is nothing in here related to improving the design and site plan of this atrocious taxpayer-supported boondoggle.

My parents' neighborhood in SW OKC has an iconic entrance sign. Most neighborhoods do or at least attempt to. I am waiting to see a lifestyle center. Allow me to illustrate what I am waiting to see:
http://www.okctalk.com/other-communi...tml#post650073

Or better yet, here's the example that the developers themselves used in order to get the TIF approved:
Utica Square - A Special Place

[vaflyer]

It's not putting down the development for any reason that we can find, it's just that people aren't willing to grasp at straws to find something to support amongst this inexcusable mess that so-called urbanist Cindy Rosenthal's term as mayor is responsible for. The encouraging signs that you're pointing to are essentially a new Mexican restaurant, a little more landscaping paid for by the city, and a new iconic entrance sign. There is nothing in here related to improving the design and site plan of this atrocious taxpayer-supported boondoggle.

My parents' neighborhood in SW OKC has an iconic entrance sign. Most neighborhoods do or at least attempt to. I am waiting to see a lifestyle center. Allow me to illustrate what I am waiting to see:
http://www.okctalk.com/other-communi...tml#post650073

Or better yet, here's the example that the developers themselves used in order to get the TIF approved:
Utica Square - A Special Place

That is a nice development in Westlake but I never remember hearing any plan to put residential above the retail in the UNP. I have heard of the possibility of multifamily housing going in the section north of Rock Creek but have never heard about any going on the south of Rock Creek. Thus, I do not understand why people are upset that there is no residential above the retail (so called urban design) when it was never in the plans from the beginning. As for Cindy Rosenthal, I would remind you that she voted against the UNP TIF when she was a member of city council.

[Questor]

I found the photo i was mentioning; the original pitch for UNP included references to this development in Phoenix:

1685d1337375493-whole-foods-main_image.jpg


It was in the Whole Foods thread.

http://www.okctalk.com/food-restaura...tml#post538915

[Geographer]

So far, UNP looks like a Norman version of Belle Isle Station. I'm holding out that it will improve, but to date, it's a complete disappointment. It's actually not as bad as Belle Isle. Belle Isle pisses me off every time I drive by - I'm just disappointed and somewhat indifferent to UNP. These renderings demonstrate better design than we've seen before, but I still cannot tell if this is anything more than a dressed-up big box center. Belle Isle and other OKC-area developments have killed all the faith I once had in developers and city planners.

You beef should definitely be with the developers, "economic development group", and the city council of Norman. I'll say this on behalf of the planners....planners can only make recommendations on what is being built and don't actually have any control on what is developed...that's up to the developers and the city council. It's unfortunate that planners, who go to school for this job (most of the time), aren't given more leeway on what should be developed...but I digress.

Simply put, UNP started out as a great idea which as been bastardized and transformed into typical American strip mall development...fancied up by some landscaping and semi-interesting buildings. Watch, in 20 years it's going to look like the Ed Noble Parkway strip center in Norman. It happens to every strip center eventually. It isn't a sustainable form of development because it's only serving one purpose...and not many purposes to increase the viability over a longer period of time.

[Geographer]

That is a nice development in Westlake but I never remember hearing any plan to put residential above the retail in the UNP. I have heard of the possibility of multifamily housing going in the section north of Rock Creek but have never heard about any going on the south of Rock Creek. Thus, I do not understand why people are upset that there is no residential above the retail (so called urban design) when it was never in the plans from the beginning. As for Cindy Rosenthal, I would remind you that she voted against the UNP TIF when she was a member of city council.

Also, Utica Square is an unfortunate place. It's a bunch of single story buildings in a pretty urban area...there's no reason those buildings shouldn't be 3-4 stories tall...keeping people in the area past 8:00 at night (unless you're stuffing your face at PF Chang at 9:00, which is possible! haha)

[progressiveboy]

Interesting new enhancements approved for University Park area! Sounds like they are finally going to raise the bar!




'Spectacular' is goal of Legacy Park enhancements approved by Norman City Council | News OK

[dankrutka]

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. No one is going to be blown away by UNP and its Discount Tire. This money would have been far better used helping to improve a historic urban area like Main Street. That's an area that actually makes Norman unique. If you want to raise the quality of life and tourism then invest in those parts of your city that make your city different and distinct.

[ljbab728]

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. No one is going to be blown away by UNP and its Discount Tire. This money would have been far better used helping to improve a historic urban area like Main Street. That's an area that actually makes Norman unique. If you want to raise the quality of life and tourism then invest in those parts of your city that make your city different and distinct.

Sounds like a nice idea but what would you have them do in downtown that could make a significant difference for that amount of money? The downtown district has hardly been neglected.

[dankrutka]

Sounds like a nice idea but what would you have them do in downtown that could make a significant difference for that amount of money? The downtown district has hardly been neglected.

Maybe put together packages to help finance housing for that area. I'm not sure what that would cost. Maybe other times of incentives for businesses could be useful. I'm just not seeing this pond and fountains moving the needle much for UNP. I'm certainly not an expert on these topics though.

[venture]

Maybe put together packages to help finance housing for that area. I'm not sure what that would cost. Maybe other times of incentives for businesses could be useful. I'm just not seeing this pond and fountains moving the needle much for UNP. I'm certainly not an expert on these topics though.

While I'm all for continued improvement in Downtown, they need to start doing some enhancements when it comes to UNP. ideally when the "lifestyle center" or whatever it is called these days starting to be built here soon, we'll see the quality of stores go up. They are finally in the position where they have a "destination" for people to go to shop - not saying it is like Michigan Ave or anything - so that will help with adding new businesses since they can see what foot traffic may already be available.

I'm as disappointed as the next person when it comes to UNP so far, but we knew it was going to take some lower end stores to at least get people going to that area at first.

[vaflyer]

Mathis Brothers partners with Ashley Furniture for retail concept | News OK

The new Ashley furniture store will face the interstate behind Kohls. A building permit for this project ($3 million) was recently taken out with the City of Norman.

Here is a list of stores currently under construction in the UNP:

Crest
DSW
HomeGoods
Michaels
Holiday Inn Express Hotel
Zoes Kitchen
Aspen Dental
Sprint

[Questor]

I'm really happy to see this, and to see the councilors' comments supporting these improvements. Recent developments such as the new Valliance Bank have been much more architecturally interesting. They still have a long ways to go but hopefully the developers "get it" now that this place needs to be something unique, something "spectacular" as the council put it.

[kevinpate]

I fear I've finally lost faith in the UNP area. When folks at the council are touting water cannons and fountain lights as the examples for something spectacular, what's the point of hoping for more? Perhaps it is odd that a tire shop did not cause me to throw in a towel but the 'spectacular' fountain lights have? No matter. Except for a bank and an eatery or two, color me done.

[Just the facts]

The new Ashley furniture store will face the interstate behind Kohls.

I wish this was a bad joke.

The enhancements include adding seven water cannons, 21 spray nozzles, programming capabilities and colored LED lighting to the 14 water cannons already in the base bid for Legacy Park improvements.

...and I supposed people are going to see this as they drive by.

[Geographer]

I hate how awful of a project the UNP has turned into, but I also love it because it shows how people on the Norman city council have no idea what makes an area spectacular, if water cannons are our idea of spectacular then like kevinpate, color me done.

[flintysooner]

We all miss Mount Williams.

[OklahomaNick]

I have not yet commented on this thread, but this development is and is going to be top notch awesome.
The developer really knows what they are doing, and they will do it right. This is GREAT for the city of Norman.

[HangryHippo]

I have not yet commented on this thread, but this development is and is going to be top notch awesome.
The developer really knows what they are doing, and they will do it right. This is GREAT for the city of Norman.

You're wrong.

[OklahomaNick]

LOL message boards.. *sigh

We have an aggressive pessimist here!

[Geographer]

I have not yet commented on this thread, but this development is and is going to be top notch awesome.
The developer really knows what they are doing, and they will do it right. This is GREAT for the city of Norman.

In terms of sales tax revenue? Sure, it's great.

Creating something unique, spectacular, and different from any other strip center in Oklahoma? Not in the slightest.

Sure, the architecture of the buildings may "look" better than a typical strip center and a few water cannons may dazzle that up a bit, but it FUNCTIONS completely the same as a normal car-oriented shopping center. It's the same as anywhere else.

[SOONER8693]

LOL message boards.. *sigh

We have an aggressive pessimist here!

I agree with you on this. All these people bitching and moaning about this, need to move on to the next cause. Or, maybe put up their own money to show everyone how it should be done.

[Plutonic Panda]

I have not yet commented on this thread, but this development is and is going to be top notch awesome.
The developer really knows what they are doing, and they will do it right. This is GREAT for the city of Norman.

I think it looks like it is going to be pretty cool as well. I guess when it's all said and done, I'll drive up and check it out, but it looks like to be a mini Frisco and if that still does not appeal to people, then I don't know what to say. Frisco is an awesome shopping district and this turns out to be 75% of what Frisco is, than this will be a great development to have. I guess we'll see though, how it turns out.

[catch22]

I think it looks like it is going to be pretty cool as well. I guess when it's all said and done, I'll drive up and check it out, but it looks like to be a mini Frisco and if that still does not appeal to people, then I don't know what to say. Frisco is an awesome shopping district and this turns out to be 75% of what Frisco is, than this will be a great development to have. I guess we'll see though, how it turns out.

That's why this development is not spectacular. You will have to drive around it to see it. Too bad it won't invite you out of your car.