Warren Theater: Why not build homes and schools to same standard?

[Urbanized]

I never said there is no such thing as a leaky basement, or an area where it was tougher to install cellars than another area. In the story you recount, a single or a few inexperienced contractor(s) could account for lots of bad installations in the same neighborhood.

The problem is that there is a near-universally held opinion here that basements are just about impossible throughout OKC and Oklahoma, and it is simply not true & based on inaccurate information. Overall it is no more difficult to build a basement here than it is in most parts of the country, but it is more expensive than many places for the reasons I previously mentioned. Shallower excavation/foundation requirements here lead to less "free" opportunity to include a basement and more relative expense to a project if considered. If considering additional expense, buyers would rather spend it elsewhere. The lack of basement demand leads to fewer experienced contractors, which in turn compounds the expense issue.

If you don't believe me that the actual ENGINEERING involved in basement construction is overall no more difficult in Oklahoma than it is elsewhere, believe builder Caleb McCaleb, and Mike Hancock, the basement specialist quoted in this article in today's Oklahoman:

...But misconceptions cloud the reality that basements still are options for houses in Oklahoma, said Edmond builder Caleb McCaleb of McCaleb Homes.

“I think there are many myths about why we don’t have basements in Oklahoma. The main ones are that our water table is too high and that our soil has too much clay in it,” McCaleb said. “If the basement is designed correctly, then water intrusion and ground movement are not problems with a residential basement. The walkout basements that we put in some of our homes are finished living spaces that look and feel just like the rest of our new homes.”

“Building a home with a basement in Oklahoma is not that different than in other areas of the nation,” said Hancock, an engineer and former Kansan who moved here with basement-building already under his belt. “With proper engineering and design, a basement can be adapted and constructed on any building site.”

On the Basement Contractors website, Hancock outlines three points he has been making for years:

• “Basements leak” — “Not necessarily ... improperly installed basements leak. In the past, many basements were installed with either no waterproofing or ineffective waterproofing. Today we use state-of-the-art, spray-on polymer liners and drainage systems that ensure your lower-level living space will remain dry and comfortable.”

• “The clay soils will cause my basement foundation to fail” — “No matter where a basement is located, soil condition must be addressed. The use of properly installed waterproofing methods and the reinforcing steel we use in our walls help prevent any potential problems later.”

• “Basements are dark and damp” — “A properly installed heating and cooling system can prevent the damp feeling and wall sweating that was common in older basements.”

[SoonerDave]

The above articles are, to a degree, circular. They say that the problems of building basements in Oklahoma are a myth, but then go on to outline precisely the kinds of things that need to be done to build them correctly, going on to talk about polymer spray-on liners and drainage systems. And overcoming those problems is a costlier issue than many expect, and hence owners opt to a lesser amount of money elsewhere.

[Urbanized]

Not exactly. Waterproofing and drainage systems are required in basements all over the U.S.. Unless you are building in the desert, you are probably going to need them if you want a truly dry basement. The additional cost of installing basements here relative to other markets is mostly because excavation is not required here to the same extent as in northern markets. And since we can build on slabs, without deep footings, stem walls, and crawl spaces, we do. Because it is easier, and cheaper. Again, the commonly-held misconception in OK is that they can't be built for one reason or another, and that is simply untrue.

[oki]

The Moore elementary school was very old. It was built in, what, 1967? Things were built differently back then.

From my understanding, an above ground safe room is rated up to 200 mph winds. The Moore tornado had stronger winds than that. It would have to be underground to withstand that. Cost, flooding, likelihood of a direct hit, chance of floor collapsing or water pipes flooding the underground, etc. Wasn't the elementary school tragedy also impacted by a broken water pipe where the poor kids were taking shelter?

Very, very sad, either way.

It's unlikely that a residential house is going to have a 200 mph plus tornado directly hit it. I would build a standard brick wood frame house. EF5s are rare, and the odds of your house being in the direct path and being leveled by such a tornado are very low. Cost vs. risk for me. A residential storm shelter in the backyard is a very good idea, but I don't have one and probably won't buy one.

What ever happened to community storm shelters? I haven't heard of one open in years.

[ljbab728]

What ever happened to community storm shelters? I haven't heard of one open in years.

I posted this under the thread about community storm shelters. They are going out of favor for reasons mentioned here.

Mustang Times, School no longer open as public shelters

[bchris02]

The Moore elementary school was very old. It was built in, what, 1967? Things were built differently back then.

From my understanding, an above ground safe room is rated up to 200 mph winds. The Moore tornado had stronger winds than that. It would have to be underground to withstand that. Cost, flooding, likelihood of a direct hit, chance of floor collapsing or water pipes flooding the underground, etc. Wasn't the elementary school tragedy also impacted by a broken water pipe where the poor kids were taking shelter?

Very, very sad, either way.

It's unlikely that a residential house is going to have a 200 mph plus tornado directly hit it. I would build a standard brick wood frame house. EF5s are rare, and the odds of your house being in the direct path and being leveled by such a tornado are very low. Cost vs. risk for me. A residential storm shelter in the backyard is a very good idea, but I don't have one and probably won't buy one.

What ever happened to community storm shelters? I haven't heard of one open in years.

Moore has had its share of EF5 tornadoes. In the last 14 years, its been hit by two F5s, one F4, and almost hit by an additional F5 in 2010 and F4 in 2011. I would say if you live in Moore or OKC south of I-240, your chances of being hit are much greater than elsewhere.

[ljbab728]

Moore has had its share of EF5 tornadoes. In the last 14 years, its been hit by two F5s, one F4, and almost hit by an additional F5 in 2010 and F4 in 2011. I would say if you live in Moore or OKC south of I-240, your chances of being hit are much greater than elsewhere.

Actually, that's not true. It's all entirely by chance and the probability is still exactly the same in any area of OKC. There is no physical or scientific reason for large tornadoes to hit that area. It's like saying that if you win money playing slot machines every night for 7 nights your chances are higher than someone else. It just doesn't work that way.

[adaniel]

Actually, that's not true. It's all entirely by chance and the probability is still exactly the same in any area of OKC. There is no physical or scientific reason for large tornadoes to hit that area. It's like saying that if you win money playing slot machines every night for 7 nights your chances are higher than someone else. It just doesn't work that way.

This! There is nothing scientifically proven to show that Moore is more likely to get hit by a tornado other than the fact that its in Central Oklahoma, which happens to be one of the most tornado prone areas in the world. Unfortunately, clueless out-of-staters who may relocate to this area will purposely avoid Moore for this reason and fail to take proper precautions, thinking they are out of the "danger zone."

[Questor]

Hurricane clips could be put in all newly constructed roofs today and it'd add at most a couple hundred bucks to the price tag of that home. It'd provide good protection up to EF3 storms and would likely save countless lives over the coming decades. But this state will never make it a requirement. I doubt any city in the metro will either. Folks are just opposed to anything like that, even when it's really a no brainer to do.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with schools. It's a bit shocking to think that the government can compel your children to attend classes in one of their facilities, but then feel it has no liability towards them when they're hurt or worse. I keep thinking about that .04% income tax cut that was just passed, and the annual $237 million that goes away as a result. That could build a lot of safe rooms in a lot of schools each year. We won't though because of cost and heaven forbid the government tell us to do something. I hate to say it, but the only thing that might change that is massive numbers of lawsuits against the state by parents of injured children. If the cost of defending or paying out lawsuits gets too great, then suddenly the cost of installing safe rooms isn't such a big deal. I doubt that'll happen either though, as folks here are often just too nice about things like that.

[jn1780]

Actually, that's not true. It's all entirely by chance and the probability is still exactly the same in any area of OKC. There is no physical or scientific reason for large tornadoes to hit that area. It's like saying that if you win money playing slot machines every night for 7 nights your chances are higher than someone else. It just doesn't work that way.

Its these same low probabilities that will make the state or city government reluctant to force people to strengthen their houses. Hurricanes affect a much larger area.

[ou48A]

Its these same low probabilities that will make the state or city government reluctant to force people to strengthen their houses. Hurricanes affect a much larger area.

From my OU meteorology…..Any given location (state wide) in Oklahoma will be hit by a tornado once every 250 years.
Since the panhandle doesn’t have that many tornadoes the odds would likely be just a little better for the main body of the state.

[ou48A]

Hurricane clips could be put in all newly constructed roofs today and it'd add at most a couple hundred bucks to the price tag of that home. It'd provide good protection up to EF3 storms and would likely save countless lives over the coming decades. But this state will never make it a requirement. I doubt any city in the metro will either. Folks are just opposed to anything like that, even when it's really a no brainer to do.

As discussed in the Popular Mechanics article that I posted on a different thread hurricane clips and several other things such as the strengthening of garage doors are cheap no brainers.
This is an educational process that needs to happen. People who are aware of cheap methods that make new construction stronger really need speak up. We own that much too future generations of Oklahoma’s, since tornadoes are not going to stop occurring in our state.

Since we can reduce death, damage, wealth destruction, job losses and a lot of demand on social services this is something that each of us should learn more about. It’s a discussion that our state leaders need to have even if we have to make them have it.

[Snowman]

Actually, that's not true. It's all entirely by chance and the probability is still exactly the same in any area of OKC. There is no physical or scientific reason for large tornadoes to hit that area. ...

At this point we have no more physical or scientific reason to say it is at exactly the same chance as any area of OKC than we can say it at a much greater chance.

[Bill Robertson]

Not exactly. Waterproofing and drainage systems are required in basements all over the U.S.. Unless you are building in the desert, you are probably going to need them if you want a truly dry basement. The additional cost of installing basements here relative to other markets is mostly because excavation is not required here to the same extent as in northern markets. And since we can build on slabs, without deep footings, stem walls, and crawl spaces, we do. Because it is easier, and cheaper. Again, the commonly-held misconception in OK is that they can't be built for one reason or another, and that is simply untrue.

My parent's 60 year old house has a basement. It was built by the previous owner and it's easy to tell from the horrible finish of the walls and steps that it was not built well. It's bone dry. In the 52 years they've lived there it's never even been damp or musty.

[SoonerDave]

Actually, that's not true. It's all entirely by chance and the probability is still exactly the same in any area of OKC. There is no physical or scientific reason for large tornadoes to hit that area. It's like saying that if you win money playing slot machines every night for 7 nights your chances are higher than someone else. It just doesn't work that way.

With all due respect, I don't think this statement holds up scientifically. Allow me to offer a case.

At the macro level, we know that the probabilities for a tornado occurring in the SE United States are higher than those in, say, the NW United States. That's due to geography, moisture flow from the gulf, southwesterly wind flow, jet stream location, you name it. Scientific, identifiable factors. This is not to say that tornadoes cannot occur in those other areas, but they are decidedly less likely. So you have a region with P(tornado) = x, and another with P(tornado) = y, with y > x, sometimes y >> x.

That's the macro discussion. Apply that to the micro level. The panhandle sees fewer tornadoes than central OK. Why? To a lesser extent, because of the same geographic and atmospheric factors that apply above.

Take it to the next-level of micro discussion - OK, Canadian, McClain, or Cleveland counties versus, say, Pottawatomie, Logan, or Seminole.

The point is that if there is a significant geographic variable that points to a "macro" level differences in airmasses, climatology, wind patterns, etc in two regions, that leads to a delineation of a differential risk in those regions, then there necessarily exists a boundary between those two regions where the probabilities are different, whether the boundaries are on a continental scale or a city scale.

Perhaps it comes back to another version of "which straw actually breaks the camels back." We don't exactly where that line that marks the boundaries is. Perhaps the line is so broad that it defies identification under current technology beyond a very coarse-grained region. And perhaps that region varies from year to year, month to month, week to week, even day to day. But I think the fact that there exists a boundary between lower risk and higher risk, and that boundary seems to exist somewhere right here in Oklahoma, to state unequivocally and absolutely that the process is random just doesn't ring true.

Offered in the spirit of good discussion..

[Larry OKC]

It has been mentioned a couple of times that the kids that died at the school, died because they drowned in an underground area when a water pipe broke. While it was reported and repeated as fact, this is FALSE

Oklahoma tornadoes: Six May 20 tornado rumors corrected | News OK

1. Children at Plaza Towers Elementary drowned in the basement. Six died from being covered in debris. One died from blunt force trauma. The school did not have a basement. Briarwood Elementary did not have a basement either.

[zookeeper]

It has been mentioned a couple of times that the kids that died at the school, died because they drowned in an underground area when a water pipe broke. While it was reported and repeated as fact, this is FALSE

Oklahoma tornadoes: Six May 20 tornado rumors corrected | News OK

I knew that had been corrected, but the ME listed most of the children at Plaza Towers as suffocation.

[bluedogok]

My parent's 60 year old house has a basement. It was built by the previous owner and it's easy to tell from the horrible finish of the walls and steps that it was not built well. It's bone dry. In the 52 years they've lived there it's never even been damp or musty.

Again, whether you can or can't build a basement is very site specific, it would be hard at my parents house because the aquifer is so close to the surface at that point that the subsurface soils stays wet most of the time. My sister lives out by Lake Overholser, it would probably be difficult out there as well with the sandy loam soils and subsurface water. In other parts of the city it would not be an issue. We are doing a new CONRAC facility at the Louisville airport, about half of the footings of the fuel canopy needed no additional soil stabilization, the other half did because the soil was so poor. The column grid is 30 feet on center so it is easy to see you don't need much space between different soils to necessitate a design change.

[OKCTalker]

Hurricane clips could be put in all newly constructed roofs today and it'd add at most a couple hundred bucks to the price tag of that home.

I'd like a homebuilder to either confirm or refute that statement because it sounds waaaay low to me, even at a retail price of $1.29 apiece (Hurricane Tie Double Plate Rafter Clip (RT15-TZ) at Aubuchon Hardware). 100 clips + $70.00 labor - that's not enough.

Friends are building a new house and he's a commercial construction manager. We met at the house yesterday and I noticed no clips, storm shelter, safe room, beefed up construction, nothing. He had been to Moore helping out two days last week, so he's seen it up close and personal. Married. Young child. Responsible husband and father. I didn't ask him why (I didn't want him to think I was challenging his decision), but he's got all the facts, his construction costs are less than yours and mine, and this is what he's chosen to do.

[SoonerDave]

I'd be willing to bet a builder/framing contractor doesn't pay half retail for something like those clips.

The $200 figure may not be precise, but I bet its not off by much. Heck, even at $400 its a cheap and worthwhile construction upgrade. Wish I had done it when I built my place in 1998. Especially cheap when thought of in terms of percentage of whole home cost.

[Questor]

Honestly didn't think anyone would take "a couple" so extremely literally.

Several years ago I was actually quoted a priced of around $500 - 700 for what the builder called "tornado tie-downs," which were the same exact thing. With inflation it's probably a bit more now, but it would be safe to say we're talking $1,000 or less on a good sized home. For nearly any home you could build here, you are talking fractions of one percent in cost of the home. It's a no-brainer.

[Questor]

As discussed in the Popular Mechanics article that I posted on a different thread hurricane clips and several other things such as the strengthening of garage doors are cheap no brainers.

Thanks, found it and am cross-posting it here:

8 Ways to Protect Your Home Against Tornadoes and Hurricanes - Doors That Can Take Some Punishment - Popular Mechanics

Wow, Pop-Mech thinks it could be done for $300 for a 2,000 square foot home.

[Urbanized]

Makes sense regarding increased vulnerability at garage doors. Seems code could have in impact on this for single family dwellings by requiring garage doors to be hardened and/or encouraging detached garages.

[kbsooner]

The clips are generally easy to install. One could pick up a couple of boxes of clips and nails and install all the clips needed around a home under construction during a weekend if you deem your contractor's/builder's price too high. Just need a ladder and a hammer. Just be careful if placing the clip towards the finish side of a top plate, as it could cause the sheetrock to bulge around the surface if the install is not clean. Better to install outboard

http://www.amazon.com/Simpson-Strong.../dp/B001AXCY46

Generally speaking this clip is rated for around 500lbs uplift per Simpson

http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/h.asp

[ou48A]

but he's got all the facts, his construction costs are less than yours and mine, and this is what he's chosen to do.

When I was a kid I knew doctors who smoked, now that more is known about smoking and its dangers more people have quit or have never smoked and I know of no doctors who smoke…….. But that’s no guarantee that they won’t get lung cancer, but it improves their odds of not getting lung cancer. Not everybody in their field of work is always the most up to date on the latest scientific research.